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Enginer PHEV Technical Information

Discussion in 'Prius PHEV Plug-In Modifications' started by krousdb, Aug 13, 2009.

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  1. krousdb

    krousdb NX-74205

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    I have started this thread for those who are interested in the technical details of the Enginer PHEV Conversion kit. I will start with dimensions, weights, ratings, efficiencies, etc... Let me know if there is any specific information you are looking for.

    Website
    Enginer | Prius Plugin PHEV Conversion Kit with Lithium-Ion | Hybrid

    Current Pricing (as of 9/21/09)
    2kWh (for 10 miles): $1995
    4kWh (for 20 miles): $3495
    DIY: No Batteries $995 Note:$1000 is added for California buyers due to CARB compliant cost (5 Year Warranty and certification cost).

    [​IMG]
    Older version 4kWh kit with Thundersky batteries (missing 2 balancers)

    [​IMG]
    New version 4kWh kit with Mottcell Batteries
    Improvements:
    * Ventilation fan for charging and discharging
    * Charger exhaust to outside directly
    * Extra holes for smart key antenna block
    * Quick Disconnect from mounting brackets
    * Better cooling in DC/DC converter
    * Less frequent beeps from the balancers
    * Better component layout for installation and service
    * Compact Mottcell batteries[/quote]

    Battery Carrier Box
    Dimensions 32.75 x 20.0 x 6.5
    Weight = 21.3 lb

    Battery Carrier Cover
    Dimensions 33.0 x 20.06 x 0.63
    Weight = 11.1 lb

    Batteries
    There are two different batteries supplied with this kit. Originally both the 2kWh and 4kWh kits were supplied with the Thunder Sky TS-LFP40 with a 40Ah capacity. Recently the height of the battery carrier box was reduced so that the rear deck cover would fit back on. That reduction in height would not allow 4kWh of the Thundersky TS-LFP40 to fit in the battery carrier. So the 39Ah Mott Cell batteries are now provided when a 4kWh kit is ordered.

    Battery Capacity (Rated vs. Actual)
    - TS-LFP40, rated at 40Ah @ 100% DoD
    - Charge started with a pack voltage of 48.0 (assume this is 0% SoC)
    - Kill-a-watt meter indicated 10.24kWh to charge to 54.0V (assume this is 100% SoC)
    - Charger efficiency is 86.7%
    - Charge added to the pack = 10.24*.867 = 8.878kWh
    - TS-LFP40 actual capacity = 8878Wh/51.2V/4 = 43.35Ah

    Battery Charger
    Input 99-121VAC, 45-63Hz / Output 58.2VDC @ 15A
    Efficiency = 88.2% using a 6 ft, 12 Gauge extension cord
    Efficiency = 86.7% using a 25 ft, 12 Gauge extension cord
    Efficiency = 76.6% using a 100 ft, 14 Gauge extension cord
    Dimensions 8.0 x 5.38 x 2.75
    Weight = 4.3 lb

    DC/DC Converter
    48-240V 3000W
    Factory programmed cut off set at 46v
    Voltage output is programmed at factory or by field support personnel through the RJ-45 port. Future enhancement is a user interface that will monitor useage and SOC.
    Efficiency (cooling fans off) = 90.8%
    Efficiency (cooling fans on) = 88.8%
    Dimensions 18.75 x 6.88 x 2.75
    Weight = 13.0 lb

    Cell Balancers
    Chargery DB8 Smart Digital Balancer
    [​IMG]
    - Battery Types: LiPo and LiFe cells
    - Cells Monitoring : up to 8
    - Displays cell voltage, pack voltage and voltage differential
    - Current drain for balancing: 300mA/cell.
    - Balance accuracy: <10mv
    - Over Charge Protection : 4.22V/cell (LiPo), 3.75V/cell(LiFe)
    - Low voltage alarm: 3.00V/cell (LiPo), 2.80V/cell(LiFe)
    - Voltage display resolution: 0.001V
    - Voltage Detection precision: 0.005V
    - Dimensions: 4.52” x 2.67” x 0.59”
    - Weight:150g​

    When connected to a set of 8 batteries, the DB8 will lower the voltage of seven cells to the level of the lowest (eighth) cell. It will perform balancing while charging, idle and discharging. It can discharge 7.2Ah per cell per day. Two DB8's are required for a 2kWh kit. An additional two DB8's are required when upgrading to 4kwh.​

    Currently, Chargery is working on a DB16 which will balance all 16 cells in the Einginer.us 2kWh pack. One additional DB16 will be required with an upgrade to 4kWh.​

    Brackets & Cables
    Dimensions various
    Weight = 8.8 lb

    More info to come after the batteries arrive and I can start testing the electronics.
     
    #1 krousdb, Aug 13, 2009
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  2. bluetwo

    bluetwo Relevance is irrelevant

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    I saw a "kit" on the internet one day this week. It seems like it was advertised as costing nearly 10,000 dollars. :eek:

    Is this something Prius owners can do for a more reasonable amount?
     
    #2 bluetwo, Aug 13, 2009
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  3. krousdb

    krousdb NX-74205

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    What you saw was for the 5kwh Hymotion kit. The Enginer kit is $1999 for 2kwh or $2999 for he 4kwh kit.
     
    #3 krousdb, Aug 13, 2009
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  4. krousdb

    krousdb NX-74205

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    A question for you techy types. The Enginer.us PHEV kit uses balancers that keep 8 cells in balance. But since there are 16 cells in the 2kwh kit and 32 cells in the 4kwh kit, it is probable that each set of 8 cells will differ in total voltage from one another. For the 4kwh kit, would it make more sense, instead of having two parallel strings of 16 cells in series to have one string with 2 sets of 2x8 cells in parallel. In that case you would have 16 cells balanced at one voltage, and the other 16 at another voltage as opposed to 4 sets of 8 cells at differing voltages.

    Or is all of this just a waste of time because during charge and discharge cycles, they all end up getting balanced anyway.
     
    #4 krousdb, Aug 16, 2009
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  5. hobbit

    hobbit Senior Member

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    You'd think a good balancer product would be able to daisy-chain
    and act as a unified whole across an arbitrary-sized pack.
    .
    _H*
     
    #5 hobbit, Aug 16, 2009
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  6. krousdb

    krousdb NX-74205

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    Yes, a full blown battery management system does that. They cost about $2000. Maybe I could use a balancer to balancer the balancers?:p
     
    #6 krousdb, Aug 16, 2009
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  7. plugmein2

    plugmein2 New Member

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    The balancers are mainly for safety reasons. One: It enhances the performance of the batteries. Two: It makes sure there no defective cells. 3: It provides needed information on the cells condition.

    This is why it is a good idea to check your balancers during charging for the first couple of times. Once that has been established, you can be more relaxed about it.

    JOANNA
     
    #7 plugmein2, Aug 16, 2009
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  8. krousdb

    krousdb NX-74205

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    Joanna,
    I don't think that you understood my question. The balancers are only capable of balancing 8 cells. If you have 8 sets of eight cels, how do you assure the each set of eight are balanced with one another?
     
    #8 krousdb, Aug 18, 2009
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  9. drees

    drees Senior Member

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    You can't, unless you manually do it. Jack mentioned in another thread that they are working on a 16-cell balancer...
     
    #9 drees, Aug 18, 2009
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  10. plugmein2

    plugmein2 New Member

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    I would think you could simplify this problem like this: Jack says to balance each pack to <.02v for optimum balancing. With time and patience my 2KW pack has achieved this. When I connect my next string of batteries, I will do the same, giving the balancers a chance to do their job.

    Having 8 balancers means you have to monitor more batteries and make sure the balancers are doing what they are supposed to do. If all 8 are balanced at the <.02v, then they are all then acting as one and they are depleated evenly. I know you have more overall knowledge about these kits than me, but oversolving a problem might have a more simple solution.:) I have read that balancing manually is an option, however, that seems like a lot of work.


    On another note, I am curious about the function of the converter, as this seems to be the new overheating glich for everyone. Is it supposed to be on all the time or is it supposed to turn on and off as demand increases? So far, my kit has been working perfectly. This is just a genreral question.

    JOANNA
     
    #10 plugmein2, Aug 18, 2009
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  11. krousdb

    krousdb NX-74205

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    Updated first post with Chargery DB8 Cell Balancer info.
     
    #11 krousdb, Aug 19, 2009
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  12. atfsi

    atfsi New Member

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    Received my 2010 II yesterday. I'de sent a query to Jack about getting a kit for it or at least being on a list, but as yet have received no reply.

    Is there any news on a 2010 (non-cardboard) kit yet, and will that mean a new thread ?

    Anxious in NH

    (Putting in backup camera while waiting)
     
    #12 atfsi, Aug 20, 2009
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  13. krousdb

    krousdb NX-74205

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    I received my second DIY kit and 6kWh of batteries yesterday. All three crates of batteries had the bottom falling off. I advised Jack to look into a better shipping container. This is probably why my other 2kwh of batteries was sent back (before delivery) due to damage.

    The first thing I did with the batteries was to measure the voltage of each cell. The Thundersky manual says that normally there will be a 0.2V difference between the highest and lowest cell in each pack. I currently have 12 packs of 4 cells, 48 cells total. To my surprise, the highest cell of the 48 was 3.308V. The lowest was 3.300V. That is very good!

    While taking the measurements, I noticed that one cell was damaged. The top was pushed in.

    [​IMG]
    There was no leakage that I could find. Amazingly, the cell voltage was 3.302. A good reading from a damaged cell. Who would have guessed?
     
    #13 krousdb, Aug 22, 2009
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  14. atfsi

    atfsi New Member

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    Heard back from Jack yesterday.....spending weekend downloading service manuals !
     
    #14 atfsi, Aug 22, 2009
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  15. MJFrog

    MJFrog Active Member

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    Nice pic of your finger. ;)
     
    #15 MJFrog, Aug 22, 2009
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  16. toddwking

    toddwking Average Joe

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    When you say "check your balancers," do you mean:
    1. check to see if they are measuring the voltage of each of the cells properly (e.g. via a voltmeter)?

    Or

    2. check them to make sure they don't overcharge, or are dissipating the charge appropriately?

    If #2, how do you check that?
     
    #16 toddwking, Aug 23, 2009
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  17. Dan.

    Dan. MPG Centurion

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    Manuals

    Here are the manuals as best I could piece together.

    Is this the Mottcell Battery (from mottcell.com)?
    LiFePO4 Battery 3.2V 40AH (note only 1000 cycles spec'd here, surely that's wrong.)

    Thundersky Battery (from thunder-sky.com):
    TS-LFP40AHA (note that 5000 cycles are mentioned!!)

    Battery Balancer (from chargery.com):
    Chargery DB8

    Still looking for the info on the DC/DC inverter and the Charger. If anyone can give a model number google might flush out the manufacturer.

    11011011
     
    #17 Dan., Aug 23, 2009
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  18. Dan.

    Dan. MPG Centurion

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    Crosspost I know... sorry guys, PC was down for a bit.

    Here's my best attempt at a connection diagram of the kit. Please let me know if there are any errors. I was unclear from the docs which connection should be tapped for the main (+) and main (-) lead into the charger and inverter/converter. By my math the main leads have 4 connections (charger, inverter, balancer, pack-interconnect). Can that get spread around since It sounds like that terminal would get kinda crowded. Also in the pics I'm seeing, it looks like people are leaving some terminals uncapped. Isn't that dangerous? Shouldn't every terminal (once tapped) be capped to prevent some random piece of junk making a connection?

    [​IMG]

    11011011
     
    #18 Dan., Aug 24, 2009
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  19. plugmein2

    plugmein2 New Member

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    To check to see if each battery (cell) is measuring evenly, not too high or too low, press the "right" black button on your balancers. When the numbers start coming up, watch the readout of each cell and simply observe the first two numbers. e.i. 3.358 and so on. The very last number is the most important. This tells you whether the cells are balanced. Jack says that last number should read .02 or less for optimum balancing, however, you can still use the Enginer if it isn't. You just want to balance the batteries out in the first few charges to lengthen battery life. There is lots of info on this in another thread about battery balancing.:)


    JOANNA
     
    #19 plugmein2, Aug 24, 2009
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  20. krousdb

    krousdb NX-74205

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    The leads from the charger and the leads from the batteries both terminate at the converter terminals. Also, it would be accurate to show the converter output connecting to the DC bus, which connects the OEM pack to the Prius Inverter.
     
    #20 krousdb, Aug 24, 2009
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