Toyota Auris hybrid beat by diesel Auris

The price of diesel was just under regular gas so in 99 I bought one. the price was lower or the same as regular for a few years here in southern oregon. Then I think it was about 2004 when diesel cost went above regular here in oregon. now for at least the last 4 years the diesel is just above preimum. right now the price is about 10% over regular, but I had a diesel rabbit for 2010-2011 the price of diesel was 25% above regular

 

I agree with you that diesel engines have their place - as shown by the new/clean high mileage TDI. However - with the comparison between 1st generation Prius and Insight ... I'm lost. Unlike the TDI & the Prius, the Insight wasn't ever meant to be a world wide market seller ... in the U.S. it was only sold in a handful of states ... and ... to get its high mpg's, Honda had to make the body out of aluminum, as well as program its traction pack to be over-utilized which ultimately resulted in premature pack failures. Gen1 Insight was only a 2-seater using a 3-banger engine ... hardly the same utility value of either the Prius or the TDI. Take away the agressive traction pack electricity usage and make it a four seater, with a 4 cylinder engine and boom it's just another average economy car. All that doesn't mean the gen1 insight was bad - or that folks are haters for bringing up facts ... it just paints the whole picture.
As for the Corolla & the Prius having "basically the same engine" ... if you mean they're both 1.8L engines OK ... but ... the Prius ICE is Atkinson. Unlike the Corola, Atkinson's effective compression ratio is about 8:1, while the expansion ratio is about 13:1. Ergo, 12% to 14% more efficient in terms of power output per fuel consumed, than the Corola ICE. The Atkinson and diesel engines share a similar hp - power band characteristic ... its narrower than a conventional ICE - so yes both are better off if they're hybridized. The big challenge for the diesel - is the engines are more costly to manufacturer ... so if you take the extra cost of a Hybrid Synergy Drive & traction pack and a couple it to the higher diesel engine cost it's necessarily going to be more than many can afford. When you couple those issues with the higher cost of diesel fuel (yes - for which you get higher mileage) ... I don't know if you're that much ahead trying to use that setup. I do see a lot more commercial trucks turning to a hybridized system utilizing diesel and it seems to be working well for them.
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Take a quick look at the BSFC maps of difernet engine types:
Brake Specific Fuel Consumption (BSFC) Maps - EcoModder

A diesel engine (eg. 1.9 TDI) will still have BSFC of 250 g/kWh delivering only 10HP, where a similar petrol engine (Saturn 1.9) will have >350 g/kWh. What do you think BSFC value of a modern 1.4 diesel engine would be in delivering only 5 HP? I would guess the same 250 g/kWh, as the older bigger engine and the peak efficiency of diesel engine is around 200 g/kwh.

What is the energy loss running the engine at 200 g/kWh -> running generator -> charging the battery -> discharging the battery -> running electric motor?

My point is still that a very small diesel engine would not benefit much in MPG if going hybrid, the only sensible diesel hybrid is with bigger engine for greater power (Peugeot, Volvo, trucks, busses). The other problem is efficient and quick warm up, to get to those optimal BSFC numbers.

 

The Peugeot hybrid costs £27,200 compared to the Prius £22,000, though it's probably of a similar spec to the higher specced Prius t-spirit at £25,000.

The Peugeot hybrid gets 83.1 mpg (Active model) combined compared to the Prius 73 mpg combined. The Peugeot diesel hybrid gets 94.2 mpg in the city rating compared to the Prius's 73 mpg UK. The Peugeot has a 2.0 litre diesel and the Prius a 1.8 petrol (obtained from website);

Peugeot 3008 HYbrid4 | Eco Friendly SUV MVP Electric Diesel Hybrid

Peugeot mpg specs obtained from page 8; http://www.peugeot.co.uk/media/peugeot-3008-hybrid4-prices-and-specifications-brochure.pdf

0-62 mph(100 kmh); Prius 10.5 seconds, Peugeot 8.5 seconds.

So a diesel hybrid works, it is more economical and faster than the Prius but the added costs of the diesel engine come in at about £2,000-£3,000/$3,300-$5,000 more expensive (including 20% UK sales tax).

 

My point exactly, but let's not exaggerate in real world that Peugeot consumes more than Prius. NEDC is just not good for comparing between different manufactures or when it comes to that sub 100 g CO2 it can be easily cheated.

Übersicht: Peugeot - 508 - Spritmonitor.de
Übersicht: Peugeot - 3008 - Spritmonitor.de
Übersicht: Peugeot - 3008 - Spritmonitor.de

It was even tested on EPA cycle and it didn't beat Prius in any category. It was already discussed in this thread:
Non-hybrid cars that give Good Fuel Economy (highway) | Page 6 | PriusChat

 

I know. The thread was discussing diesel hybrids and how they'd cost more to make for little gain. I was showing that the gains are more than little (faster, more power) but still only cost a couple grand more than a Prius.

The fact that a german magazine takes a pop against a french manufacturer is nothing new. Same as magazine 'real world' mpg figures. They vary depending on the bias of the said magazine. And I'm guessing the so called cheating that Peugeot did could also be implemented by Toyota with their Prius. Or do certain companies cheat or play by the rules depending on personal bias?

 

We can split hairs and discuss what is "The Best" all day long, but anything is better than what GM, Ford and Chrysler offers in the same price range to the US market. The average car price in the US is $31,000+ with an average 25 mpg. That average includes imports. Any modern vehicle that cost $31,000 and gets 50+ mpg for 250,000+ miles sounds good to me, diesel, gas or whatever. I really think once "big interests" get out of the way, diesel/hybrids will be a viable option here.

 

They used to be very close to each other. Regular gas and diesel were around 10 cents different with which one costing more going back and forth. The higher priced diesel trend, as I remember, started around the time of ULSD introduction.
Department of Energy Diesel Price Index

If it is the ultra low sulfur that is the reason for the higher diesel, us gasoline users might only have until 2017 to be smug about cheaper fuel.

 

Is that when it goes down to 10ppm of sulphur?

If so, we've had that legislated since 2007. Maybe adding to why our fuel prices are so high (in addition to high taxation).

 

Yep, that's when it starts at least. The roll out won't be complete until 2025.

EPA Looking to Lower Sulfur Levels in Gasoline - Motor Trend


Going back to diesel prices, the other reason for it getting higher than gasoline is due to global demand. Europe favors it. Plus, India and China economies' have been growing along with their middle classes.
Why has diesel fuel been more expensive than gasoline? - FAQ - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

 

There were other factors that had to do with the increase in price of diesel historically lower here, but USLD was when the price first consistently passed that of gas. Then oil companies took advantage of Hurricane Katrina to near double the retail price of all petroleum based fuels (for a while) around the same time...and does anyone want to know who is really paying for the BP oil spill?

All we can do is make personal choices based on what is available, the current conditions and cater that to our preferences. If someone wants to pay $14,000 for a car that might get 30 mpg, $25,000 for one that gets 50 mpg, $90,000 for a truck that gets maybe 14 mpg or $90,000 for one that gets 200+ miles on a charge, so be it. All I am saying is that a diesel/hybrid has proven viable and should be given as a choice here too.

 

Diesel isn't popular everywhere. Some places have cottoned on to the increased smog forming emissions.

But those emissions are handled in the new Euro6 emissions that have come into place this year and will apply to all new diesel cars new year. This then has the benefit of much higher fuel economy than petrol AND equivalent emissions. I think that is when diesel comes of age.

 

I read some of them and they also say that an hybrid gets 30 MPG on highways... they seems a little biased to me.

 

No, because I've drove more than once an hybrid (mine ) on European highways at maximum allowed speed 80 MPH (measured with Torque) and I was unable to do worse than approx. 37 instant MPG (also from Torque, not display) ... the only highways in the EU where you can get 30 MPG are the German autobahns with no speed limit, or going up on a mountain without going down.
If it's not a lie, they are at least erraneous tests.

 

Here is a nice explanation of typical German autobahn driving:
Driving the Prius 2010 on a German Autobahn… | Prius 3 experiences from Europe

Who is biased? Yo could say that tests from journalists or not are all just amateur.

 

Biased? I'd say it was a reasonable article as far as such things go (obviously English not his first language);

So now the main question is – what was the average fuel consumption, including 25km/15mi in town before leaving Munich???? 10L/100km-23MPG? No. 8L/100km-29MPG? No. It was just 6L/100km-39MPG. I am honestly impressed.
This also means that if I drive it more slowly (say 140km/h-87mph), I would probably get 5L/100km-47MPG. And that for a german autobahn *is* impressive. I would never get that on the Polo diesel I got before. I have also tested today going 150km/h-93mph more or less constantly, and you do get 7L/100km-34mpg average.

He said he was driving on the autobahn at between 93 & 118 mph! That, along with 15 mile in town resulted in a fuel economy of 39 mpg. He admits if he were driving slower at 87 mph (that's slower?!?! lol), that he'd get more mpg. He was hammering the car. Nobody in the civilised world has an unrestricted speed limit like in Germany, so cruising at 70/80 mph, he admits he'd get a lot more.

 

The instant mpg display was around that at 90mph in my gen2. It has been awhile, I might of gotten up to 95.

 

I would call Autobahn driving non-typical.