1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Gasbuddy Poll: "Would you consider an electric or hybrid for your next vehicle?"

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by BluetoothEdsel, Apr 14, 2014.

  1. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2005
    19,606
    8,036
    54
    Location:
    Montana & Nashville, TN
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    If saving fuel costs up front is the way to go - the airline industry would still be flying older REV's of the 747's ... when in fact, they spend 100's of millions for new fleets. FedEx legacy fleet flying from china would have to refuel before reaching their hub in Nashville. The new generation are more fuel efficient ... enough so that they make it as a direct flight. Same with a bunch of the trucks now days. What really counts ... if you're looking a a pure fuel cost savings is how long you use it. If you're going to strictly consider fuel, and buy another car in just a couple years, then you might as well buy a teeny Kia. But - that's not the real world when it comes to the car buyers' choice.
    .
     
  2. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,597
    11,224
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    As you point out, it is how long you use it. Shipping trucks rack up hundreds of thousands more miles than a family car does before hit their end of life. Airframes can be in service for 30 years. These more efficient planes and trucks are going to earn their way long before the company gets rid of them. On the other hand, if a new car buyer is trading in every 5 years, or leasing for just 3, the upfront costs for fuel efficiency may not be worth it.

    Of course, fuel cost is just one consideration for a car purchase, and there are reasons beyond lower fuel costs for choosing a hybrid.
     
  3. sorka

    sorka Active Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2008
    1,004
    194
    0
    Location:
    Merced, CA
    Vehicle:
    2019 Prius
    Model:
    Limited

    But you can't really compare the two. The Prius is a mid sized family sedan and the fiesta is a sub compact. Also have you tried passing at freeway speed in both cars? The gen II prius MG2 puts out 295 ftlbs of torque which is limited low speeds by software otherwise it would be very undriveable, but passing from 70 to 90, it pulls the same gs as your 1995 SC400 does from 70 to 90. Those that own gen II prius (can't speak of gen III but I assume they're faster) know just how good the passing speed is of a prius. Much faster than the official hp rating.

    Also, if you do mostly in town stop and go driving, then there isn't even a fuel economy comparison. In town driving, the Fiesta get's 32 MPG while the Prius climbs up to 55 MPG.

    If you compare TCO, then the gap widens. There's just a lot less to do on a Prius maintenance. We have 170K on our 2009 and the brake pads are still at 80%. They will never have to be replaced. There are no belts to replace. There's just a lot less you have to do or spend.
     
    Bozoukitar and BluetoothEdsel like this.
  4. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    17,039
    10,013
    90
    Location:
    Western Washington
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    This is TH's SOP.

    Note also that while he is claiming to show the 45 mpg-highway Fiesta, he is actually using the price of the bare bones 38 mpg-highway version. Again, his SOP.
     
  5. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2013
    1,218
    4
    0
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius
    Model:
    One
    Prius is a midsize "sedan"? Hmmm. Maybe the Civic hybrid fits that description (since it has a trunk):

    ~26,000 for the Civic hybrid (including tax)
    ~16,000 for the standard Civic
    And about 10mpg difference. So that means you would have to drive the hybrid version around 2 million miles for gasoline savings to match the initial price tag savings of the nonhybrid.

    That is why I stated I can only recommend the low cost Prius C and Honda insight to folks looking to save money.

    Aside: I never consider city MPG because they are full of smog & I avoid them almost completely. I advise my fellow citizens to do the same (also eat less food) to improve their health. :)
     
  6. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,068
    15,372
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    I can only recommend a car that meets the buyer's requirements. So we usually go over the requirements and then give a list of options. This includes buying a used car such as these recently sold on Ebay:
    • $6,900 - 2008 Prius
    • $13,990 - 2012 Prius
    • $7,550 - 2008 Prius
    • $8,995 - 2006 Prius
    • $14,500 - 2012 Prius
    • $2,233 - 2002 Prius
    A used Prius is better than a new <anything> else since the deprecation has already been paid. You get more car, affordable, and over all, a great starter.

    Our first Prius is a 2003 bought with 49,000 miles on the odometer. I just parked it back from lunch and it has over 160,000 miles. Still haven't changed the brake pads and shoes.

    Bob Wilson
     
    usnavystgc and Zythryn like this.
  7. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    17,039
    10,013
    90
    Location:
    Western Washington
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    More misleading TH FUD, comparing the hybrid price at MSRP OTD, while the non-hybrid is at a steeply discounted price, well below invoice, without destination fee, and without TTL.

    And that 'about 10mpg difference' is 11 mpg highway, 14 mpg combined.
     
  8. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2013
    1,218
    4
    0
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius
    Model:
    One
    Show your math then. YOU figure-out how's my miles the CH would have to be driven until its gasoline savings match the Base Civics price tag savings. (It will still be hundreds of thousands of miles.) :)

    BTW I also cannot recommend diesels. Cruze Diesel is waaaay more expensive than the base Cruze or Cruze Eco (42? mpg). The fuel savings would take 1-2 million miles to match the price tag savings of buying the nondiesel Cruzes.

    The base Camry is cheaper than the hybrid Camry. The base Acura ILX or RLX are cheaper than the hybrid versions..... the base Fusion is cheaper than the hybrid Fusion (et cetera et cetera). :)

    The Prius C and Insight are the only hybrids I can recommend, as they will save my neighbor money (because of their low ~19,000 cost). :-D
     
  9. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,068
    15,372
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    When I buy a car, I am not charged for all of my operating expenses at the same time . . . and neither are you. Yet you insist this is the only accounting method 'allowed.' Nonsense.

    We buy cars to meet our transportation requirements and once purchased, that cost has instantly been transfered with the title and registration. There is nothing that can bring that money back until the car is sold. Thereafter, it is operating costs alone that matter and that comes from future income, not the past that just bought the car.

    I know it is a hard thing for some folks to wrap their heads around, doing accounting by another means. But it really is the difference between a capital and operational expense. So if a car sits in a barn, the purchase price is the same as if it drives 100,000 miles per year as some taxi and delivery service vehicles do.

    So I always recommend understanding the buyer's requirements, versus someone who has 'no dog in that fight.' We call such busy-bodies, gossips, and their insights have the same value as gossip.

    Bob Wilson
     
  10. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    17,039
    10,013
    90
    Location:
    Western Washington
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Show your pricing sources.
     
  11. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000, Tesla M3 2018

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2009
    2,934
    2,287
    0
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base

    That's great for you, but the fact is that a lot of people do drive in the city. And it would improve the air quality if more people who do drive in the city drove hybrids. I advise my fellow citizens to drive hybrids, EVs, PHEVs when they are in the city, or anywhere else. And I tell them to eat less sodium -- it helps to lower blood pressure.

    Mike
     
  12. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,068
    15,372
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    So are you some sort of Californian who like to see the mountains instead of a grey, eye-burning smog?

    Bob Wilson
     
    3PriusMike likes this.
  13. Former Member 68813

    Former Member 68813 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    3,524
    981
    8
    Location:
    US
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Lets compare city MPG please?

    One more thing, if mid-$20k Prius is too expensive to own, why average car sold in USA costs $30k? I would like to know answer to this one.
     
  14. BluetoothEdsel

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2013
    164
    25
    1
    Location:
    San Diego
    Vehicle:
    2014 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    I've been surprised how often in general Prius (liftback) gets compared to much smaller cars. It's classified as a mid-size, and while it may not be as big as some others in that class, it's significantly bigger than a compact in terms of cargo and passenger space. Think of all the Prius taxis in the US.. I can't imagine a Mazda3 or Focus hatch would be considered large enough for taxi use here (though it seems they exist in countries where cars are smaller in general.)

    In my case - though partly a fluke of local pricing and timing - I ended up looking at similarly equipped Mazda3 and the Prius for about the same price. So the Prius gas savings actually made it less expensive right out of the gate. I also considered various wagons - but there the MPG tradeoff adds up pretty quickly for even someone with moderate annual mileage.

    That said, the hatch and overall space was very important to me. If it hadn't been, I might well be driving my third Corolla or a Civic at this point and maybe saved money overall. But - apples and oranges. (Also, living in the most expensive gasoline city in the US, I tend to be a terrible pessimist regarding longterm gas prices. :))
     
    bwilson4web likes this.
  15. KennyGS

    KennyGS Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2014
    1,243
    1,044
    1
    Location:
    Keystone State
    Vehicle:
    2014 Prius
    Model:
    Five
    One of the reasons I bought mine. Tons of space and very comfortable!


    My first ride in a Prius was in a NYC cab. :)
     
    BluetoothEdsel likes this.
  16. jonb505

    jonb505 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2012
    317
    77
    0
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    N/A
    Reminds me of the conversation I had with the toyota shuttle driver a few months ago. Older fellow, referred to a lexus as an overpriced "couch" on wheels. :D
    Maybe a tad simplistic metaphor for a car but in the end, isn't it really just a place to park your butt and carry you around places?

    On the topic, I was one of those "never consider a hybrid or electric" people a few years ago. Then when it was time to retire my current ride a couple years ago I decided to look into the Prius. Sure glad I did. With gas prices currently sitting at $1.50 per liter in my city and only promising to rise it doesn't take much driving to make up the so called "hybrid premium".
    The way I look at it, as I drive the v, my only real alternative for comparable interior space would be a small SUV, which =worse MPG and higher purchase price. So, where is this hybrid premium they speak of?? :)
     
    3PriusMike and BluetoothEdsel like this.
  17. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2013
    1,218
    4
    0
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius
    Model:
    One
    I never said my accounting is the only method. That's why I asked other people to share their accounting math. Prius is a midsize but only just barely. Its original format was classed as a compact, so I think it's reasonable to compare, for example, a Focus and a Prius if the difference is a trivial 1-2 cu. foot. In fact I bet the Focus has more usable space simply due to how that internal space has been arranged. (The focus trunk can be stuffed full of goods without blocking the rear view.)

    Bob: If a customer buys a car (example: Acura ILX) for $25,000 and sells it for $15,000 then he is ten thousand dollars poorer than when he started. No amount of accounting tricks will change that. Said customer would be better off buying a 16,000 dollar car (example: the ILX but in its Honda Civic base format), selling it for ten thousand, and waste far less cash.

    Actually the best investment is to drive until the car dies..... just like I do with any other appliance (TV, fridge, stove). The cost comes-out to ~8 cents per mile. Trading-in a car after only 5 years/75,000 miles (US average) with about ten thousand price tag loss is 13 c/mile.
     
  18. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    17,039
    10,013
    90
    Location:
    Western Washington
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Volumes -
    Prius: 115.3 cu. ft.
    Focus Hatchback: 114.5
    Focus Sedan: 103.1
    Fiesta Hatchback: 1oo.o and 95.2
    Fiesta Sedan: 97.9

    So TH is creating a Chimera, a mythological creature composed of parts of several real items, to compare against the Prius. This Chimera has:

    The shape of a Focus Sedan,
    The interior volume of the Focus Hatchback,
    The highway MPG of the smaller Fiesta with optional Ecoboost engine,
    A price lower than the invoice of the Fiesta base model, without the Ecoboost upgrade,
    No destination fee,
    No taxes,
    And is never run in city conditions.

    Of course this Chimera is better, because it is a myth!

    Unfortunately, this has been TH's SOP, to sow a bunch of confusion over new readers. The highway-only bit is reasonable for a certain subset of drivers, but the rest is trolling for a ***** designation.
     
    bwilson4web likes this.
  19. engerysaver

    engerysaver Real Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2011
    426
    130
    0
    Location:
    Tyler, Texas ; USA
    Vehicle:
    2011 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Could not say it better myself!!;)
     
  20. BluetoothEdsel

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2013
    164
    25
    1
    Location:
    San Diego
    Vehicle:
    2014 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    Though this happens more than just here. I think it points to the fact that public perception of hybrids is still pretty one-dimensional, even though they've been around for many years and there are all sorts of models out there. Lots of people still look at hybrids in terms of "MPG - period," rather than looking at a given car's balance of MPG and other features. Some people will earnestly point out that you can beat a hybrid's mileage with a motorcycle. That works out for some people, but...