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Wish list for NEW Generation "c."

Discussion in 'Prius c Main Forum' started by Mike500, Apr 11, 2014.

  1. Mike500

    Mike500 Senior Member

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    I don't own a "c," but I have been following each and every technical discussion on the "c," since it was first available in the US in 2012.

    With all the experience that Toyota has with hybrids and ECU's, why the heck they put a mechanical key in the C2?

    Why does Toyota still use a mechanical shifter for the "c?"

    While the lower level "c" need not have the full Smart Key system, Toyota could easily offer a simpler system with an electronic RFID key that needs to be inserted into the console that includes OPEN-CLOSE buttons on the fob for the door locks. A START-STOP button could be used like the regular Prius and the higher level "c."

    OGS, Stage 10 and TOM's have shown that an electronic push button shifter could save over a pound and space compared to even the mechanical "fly-by-wire" system in the Gen II and Gen III Prius and the "v." The push button shifter would cost less than the front switch panel on a cheap microwave oven.



    My thoughts on how the "c" can be improved.
     
  2. rjdriver

    rjdriver Active Member

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    I only have two real complaints about the C - road noise at highway speeds, and harsh ride on bad pavement. I realize these were part of the compromises made to save weight and increase gas mileage, but I think there is a middle ground that many C owners would have been happy with, where only a small mileage penalty would surface.

    So for the next gen C, let's add a new model. Call it the CX or something, to keep it out of the gas mileage computation for the regular C.

    The CX would add back many of the things Toyota left out to save weight and improve mileage in the original C.
    1. Better sound deadening material, and more of it. (estimated weight added - 100 to 150 lbs)
    2. More sophisticated suspension (mainly rear) for a better ride. (estimated weight added - 250 to 300 lbs)
    3. Padded dash and door sections for a softer less hard look and feel in the cabin. (30- 40 lbs)

    I think the mileage penalty would be minor. After driving the C for two years now, I have become sufficiently Priusized in my habits, that I think I could overcome the effect of most of that added weight with driving techniques.

    Oh yeah -almost forgot one other thing - Low Profile Rear Head Rests, please
     
  3. SwhitePC

    SwhitePC Active Member

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    I guess a do-able wishlist to keep the price around the same, would be:

    TRD (or whatever better spoiler they come out with) comes stock
    push start for all trim levels
    touchscreen radio for trim 1-2 (don't need to have gps)
    a better thought out foam insert (or no foam insert) to get more space/sound deadening out of the back luggage
    remove the conventional shift knob and opt for something that'll take less space in the front (so more space in the front center aisle)
    change the rear headrest to something smaller, less obscuring
    LED (for higher trim 3-4?)
    Lighter/more battery umphf
    60mpg+ rating in city, 55mpg+ rating on highway
     
  4. Runswithdog

    Runswithdog Junior Member

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    Two simple gripes I wish my car had are better interior lighting and automatic headlamps.
     
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  5. I actually love the shifter on the "c" that's one of the reasons I wanted it. The smoothness of moving the shifter around, the feel of the shifter, the blue color knob :LOL: I just wish the letters were laser engraved, but then they wouldn't glow in the dark like they already do.

    Let's see, I wish the top of the car was closer to the ground; that would save on fuel economy.
    Ambient lighting (I picked up an LED kit which looks so sweet)
    Real leather (not SofTeX vinyl - it feels thin)

    And a quieter engine at higher RPMs!

    For comparison my SUV was a 6 cylinder and it sounded great all the way to 6k
     
  6. NR427

    NR427 Member

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    Get rid of the squeaks in the dash. Power seat with lumbar adjustment. Turn on the hvac when you change the temp, my 1991 Oldsmobile did that why not the Prius!
     
  7. ewaboy

    ewaboy Active Member

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    Push button start - 1912:
    [​IMG]

    Push button shifter? No - too much like some of the late 50s, early 60s V8 & Slant 6 "boats" and banana wagons I learned to drive on.

    Sorry but I like the key and the shifter just fine.

    Pushbutton Shifting - Popular Mechanics
    5 New Car Features That Aren't Really New

    "NEW" SELLS (WELL, UNLESS YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT NEW COKE). BUT WHILE MARKETERS TRUMPET EVERY CAR FEATURE LIKE IT'S NEVER BEEN SEEN BEFORE, MANY "NEW" FEATURES OF TODAY FIRST APPEARED DECADES AGO.

    First hybrid? 1901:
    [​IMG]
    Hybrid Electric Drive

    The world's first hybrid, the 1901 Lohner-Porsche featured components and technologies that mirror those found on contemporary hybrids, including electric wheel-hub motors, batteries, and generators.

    The engineering of the first hybrid was so significant that, even though it was decades old by the 1960s, NASA studied this vehicle as the space agency developed the Apollo program's Lunar Rover. The thinking behind the first hybrid was so solid and practical that the series hybrid design is used to power many modern railway locomotive engines.

    Engineered by Ferdinand Porsche, the hybrid electric Lohner-Porsche remained in production until 1906, beating today's generation of hybrids to market by about 90 years.

    YMMV
     
  8. ewaboy

    ewaboy Active Member

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    Not to say there can't be improvements.

    My 2001 Chevy Prizm - the economy model - had auto headlights.

    I'd like a little more traction battery as the ICE often has to kick in when stuck in bumper to bumper traffic on the freeway.

    For the HI people - for me it's the infamous Ft Shafter to Punahou stretch going Kokohead and the Red Hill to Waipahu or vice-versa stretch when there's an accident.

    YMMV
     
  9. Mike500

    Mike500 Senior Member

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    For those who are NOT tech-savvy, it would be simple to compare the early mechanical push button shifters with those of today's digital electronic technology.

    The mechanical shifter weight from 1.5 to 6 pounds and takes up 128-200 cubic inches in space. Early push button shifters were much more complicated than current mechanical shifters.

    An electronic push button shifter weighs no more than 3-5 ounces and takes less than 16 cubic inches of space.

    A mechanical steering column lock weighs two pounds and takes about 38 parts. An electronic push button key takes a small 1x2 inch circuit board and one switch. Again, it weighs 3-5 ounces.

    Both are no more complicated or more expensive than a simple appliance control board like that on a microwave oven. A complete microwave oven can be had for less than $50 retail.

    Electronic "fly by wire" controls will take over in the next 10 years, if not sooner.

    Mercedes no longer has a floor shifter for most of their offerings.
     
  10. ewaboy

    ewaboy Active Member

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    "For those who are NOT tech-savvy..."

    Yep - that would be me...A Luddite to the core.:)

    "Fly by wire" - I keep thinking of the F16 - nickname "Lawn Dart". :cautious:

    When the F16 loses power - the controls go south and the plane turns into...a Lawn Dart.

    Microwave ovens are cheap - and they often break down when the controls go bad. Even the good brands - some last for years, others go belly up in months - I'm sure someone will figure out a way of replacing the controls with a smartphone ap - "BT" controls - sorry - not for me:

    "Both are no more complicated or more expensive than a simple appliance control board like that on a microwave oven. A complete microwave oven can be had for less than $50 retail."

    YMMV
    What the Luddites Really Fought Against | History | Smithsonian
    Definition of LUDDITE: one of a group of early 19th century English workmen destroying laborsaving machinery as a protest; broadly : one who is opposed to especially technological change.
    Merriam-Webster

    There's even a mention of the Prius in this article:D :
    "We try to simplify our lives by shopping at the local farmers market—then haul our organic arugula home in a Prius."
     
  11. Mike500

    Mike500 Senior Member

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    As far as systems go, it will become cheaper to build the electronic components than the mechanical ones.

    Electronic board are machine assembled. Hand assembly needs only to be done, when it comes to putting the circuit board in it's case.

    Key cylinders, cast Zamak steering column lock bodies and mechanical shifters still need to be assembled by hand.

    Mechanical adding machines and computers have long since been replaced by electronic calculator. They are so cheap that they are disposable when broken or even when the battery runs down. The same happened with mechanical clocks and watches.


    The automobile industry only gets a premium for these items, because of marketing.

    As far as the F16 goes, almost no new high performance airplanes now use cables, levers and pulleys. One worn pulley or frayed cable can mean death to an aerobatic pilot.

    The human being is not capable to make all of the decisions quick enough to fly an F22.
     
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  12. ewaboy

    ewaboy Active Member

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    I do know it's cheaper to make the electronics. Still not convinced it's better.

    F16 pilots have died because the electronics have stopped working. The best modern fighters are "unstable" without the electronics - when the circuit board goes bad - the pilot's only option is to punch out...if it's possible at that point.

    The Raptors are a whole different ball game - thrust vectoring gives it the ability to fly like no one's ever seen before. Also used in planes such as the MiG 29 and SU 37 and others.

    There's an old saying: "Speed is armor" - see the article below to see why this may still apply.

    However - see this article about the strengths and weaknesses of thrust vectoring:
    F-22 Won't Win A Dogfight - Business Insider
     
  13. Mike500

    Mike500 Senior Member

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    I'm NOT saying that it BETTER. It's just different.

    Computers when driven with the right software algorithms can operate a car more efficiently than mechanical devices or human beings.

    With the drive to higher CAFE mileage ratings, most all transmissions and engine controls will be with computers.

    Computer chips or integrated circuit devices as well as software are cheaply "duplicable" cheaply in large quantities. They can be readily and easily be re-programed.

    Mechanical devices require a massive outlay in cutting and forming dies as well as jigs, holding fixtures and some very labor intensive hand assembly. Cheap foreign labor in third world countries is becoming more and more expensive.

    Computer controls mean the death of simplicity. Everything is a tradeoff.
     
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  14. ewaboy

    ewaboy Active Member

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    Computer controls mean the death of simplicity. Everything is a tradeoff.

    Good point.

    My 2001 Chevy Prizm now sits dead in my carport. Two different mechanics tried to fix it. Both mechanics said everything mechanical was working or repaired. The codes the car kept throwing didn't make sense.

    The only thing left was that it was probably the "computer" and for this car it was expensive.

    My friend, a professional mechanic, told me to give up, cut my losses and go buy a new car.

    So I retired my beloved (;) I know I'm a little weird) 2001 Prizm - kept driving the '97 Prizm and eventually bought my C.

    YMMV
     
  15. Mike500

    Mike500 Senior Member

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    As I recall the Geo Prizm was made at the NUMMI joint venture Toyota-GM plant that was closed in 2009. It is basically a "transitional" car between the simple totally mechanical days and the computerized cars of today.

    Mechanical problems required a lot of skill to troubleshoot. Electronic systems, less, with the right diagnostic tools.

    If you ever watched any of the car restoration shows, you will see how expensive it is just to restore and old 1960's or 1970's car. Just thing how expensive it will be 50 years from now. Today's cars, although more reliable and longer lived are basically "throwaways" near the end of their lifespans.
     
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  16. ewaboy

    ewaboy Active Member

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    Yep - both Prizms made in Fremont(?) at NUMMI.

    Funny is that a lot of the small parts did not interchange with Corollas.

    Drove some of the mechanics crazy as the parts supply computers showed the parts as interchangeable but the Chevy specs were different. Toyota parts often didn't even come close to fitting.

    One parts company kept sending the wrong door handle - three times - their computer said it fit the Prizm but it didn't. Mechanic finally ordered the part from Chevy.

    YMMV
     
  17. Mike500

    Mike500 Senior Member

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    Apparently, GM provided specific parts to the line for the body parts, while Toyota supplied other parts to make the Corolla. I can see where the parts can be interchanged, like the battery on my fathers 2003 NUMMI Corolla.

    Aftermarket listings are always subject to the skill of the researcher, and may or may not be correct.

    As far as electronic components are concern, a "push button" 5 volt system can be easily and readily be reprogrammed at very little expense to the dealer or Toyota. It is the propriety nature of the software that allows Toyota to charge high cost fees.

    It will take a few years for the "OLD SCHOOL" engineers to retire and the advent of younger "NEW SCHOOL" engineers to come on line. Does anyone remember how Zenith brand TV's used to advertise how much better individually HAND WIRED components make their TV's better? I have a friend who worked for Burroughs Detroit, MI in the 1960's and 1970's. He told me that the company folded, because they were too late to avoid PRINTED CIRCUIT BOARDS.


    The lock cylinders in the ignition switches of the current GM recall on the Cobalt, et al, could have been readily avoided if the "OLD SCHOOL" engineers had the vision to position the "ON" position of the switch in the UP-DOWN position, so that GRAVITY would naturally keep the car in the ON position, until which time the driver decides to turn the car OFF.

    Even if the engineers realized the need later, retooling all of the dies and testing would have been cost prohibitive for ALL of those INSTALLED UNITS out in the public. Reprogrammed software would have been simple and cheap.


    That's why mechanical parts are ON THE WAY OUT in favor of electronic systems.