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Diesel Prius

Discussion in 'Diesels' started by cmth, Sep 13, 2013.

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  1. cmth

    cmth Active Member

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    Calm down folks I think its just a typo.

    BTW I like the volvo diesel hybrid specs but its way too expensive for what it is & volvo 's reliability record isn't on par with Toyota. Just goes to show how difficult a job it is to get everything right.
     
    #101 cmth, Apr 22, 2014
  2. cmth

    cmth Active Member

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    This is some of the competition Prius Gen 3 faces today:

    Peugeot 308 Blue HDi - 91.1mpg
    Volkswagen Golf BlueMotion - 88.3mpg
    Skoda Octavia Greenline - 88.3mpg
    Ford Focus ECOnetic - 83.1mpg
    Volvo V40 D2 - 83.1mpg

    These are all relatively similar in size, price, performance & even emissions. Mileage is quoted as per EU combined test cycle. And just for comparison:

    Prius Gen 3 - 72.4mpg

    Non-plugin hybrids in general face stiff competition these days especially here in Europe. Two things are becoming clear:

    1. Prius Gen 4 will need to be really special
    2. The case for a cost-effective diesel hybrid design is greater than ever
     
    #102 cmth, Apr 30, 2014
  3. GasperG

    GasperG Senior Member

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    .. and again take a look at the values in real world driving (spritmonitor) or take those cars to EPA to test them without NEDC cheating.

    Some of your listed models:
    Übersicht: Peugeot - 308 - Spritmonitor.de
    Übersicht: Volkswagen - Golf - Spritmonitor.de
    Übersicht: Skoda - Octavia - Spritmonitor.de
    Übersicht: Ford - Focus - Spritmonitor.de
    Prius:
    Übersicht: Toyota - Prius - Spritmonitor.de
    Yaris Hybrid (Prius C drivetrain):
    Übersicht: Toyota - Yaris Hybrid - Spritmonitor.de

    Some of them are really close, but those are all new models, Prius is more than 4 years old. And again Diesel fuel contains more energy per volume, that is why it's more expensive than petrol (not in Europe thanks to different tax). It emits more CO2 at the same MPG number. A correction factor of 10-13% should be applied when talking about raw fuel efficiency.
     
    #103 GasperG, Apr 30, 2014
  4. cmth

    cmth Active Member

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    I agree with all your points but just wanted to show out how close the competition is. When I got my current car - a Prius Gen 3 - in 2009, the clean diesels were trailing behind by a good margin. The one or two cars that did come close were not similar in size. Today we are in the situation that medium sized family cars (and even 7 seater people carriers) with non-hybrid diesel engines outperform non-plugin hybrids. And just to be clear - I am still a fan of hybridization and my next car will probably be a Gen 4 prius but I am not at all happy that Toyota gave up on Diesel tech R&D and are too focused on their Atkinson engines - this is like running in a marathon with one hand tied up behind - yes it may be possible to still win but imagine the outcome had they ran freely.
     
    #104 cmth, Apr 30, 2014
  5. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    But that website you link to is similar to fuelly but gives the fuel economy figures of owners of PREVIOUS generation vehicles. The brand spankers are improved on economy - just look at the new 2014 Civic compared to the new facelifted Civic released in 2012. The economy is much better due to small improvements. These improvements won't have worked their way into 'real world experience' as yet.

    And the other issue is that those models quoted by cmth will all be manual transmissions. Urghh who drives those these days o_O
     
    #105 GrumpyCabbie, Apr 30, 2014
  6. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    Just about THE ONE thing that America gets right with regard to personal transportation is that Diesels are only popular here when they're hauling tractor trailers or a pair of TruckNutz around. ;)
     
    #106 ETC(SS), Apr 30, 2014
  7. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

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    The above comment is an example of irrational prejudice. Diesels are SULEV qualified in the US (as clean as a car can get) and the first three cars to qualify for "tax free" in the UK were all diesels.

    They were below 100 g/mile of CO2. That's clean. (Hybrids were still spewing higher levels until the C finally beat the sub-100 goal.)
     
    #107 Troy Heagy, Apr 30, 2014
  8. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

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    The above comment is an example of irrational prejudice. Diesels are SULEV qualified in the US (as clean as a car can get) and the first three cars to qualify for "tax free" in the UK were all diesels.

    They were below 100 g/mile of CO2. That's clean. (Hybrids were still spewing higher levels until the C finally beat the sub-100 goal.)
     
    #108 Troy Heagy, Apr 30, 2014
  9. GasperG

    GasperG Senior Member

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    Look again, almost all vehicles that I linked are latest and models with rated MPG. Golf 1.6 TDI bluemotion has 5 more HP than normal 1.6 TDI, my link takes only the new bluemotion with 110 HP. Then Ford is giving the new name Econetic to sub 100 g diesel models. New Peugeot e-HDI has 116 HP that older didn't have. The only mix of previous and current generation car in my link is Skoda.
     
    #109 GasperG, Apr 30, 2014
  10. GasperG

    GasperG Senior Member

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    Sub 100 g/mile CO2 diesel or non plug-in hybrid does not exist, even by the NEDC standards. CO2 is not a standard to define a car clean.
     
    #110 GasperG, Apr 30, 2014
  11. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    Not the way I see it.
    When Diesels reach parity with "gassers" in real world terms with a winning combination of cost, performance, weight, reliability, and cleanliness then they will gain market share. Until that time, they will have to be supported by subsidies, kick-backs, and rabid cheerleaders, obfuscation, and "statistics"....the latter all to often being confused with "facts."
    It might happen in the future but it will happen the same way that it did with hybrids, both the good and bad and the EV crowd is also wading into the "I'm greener than you!!!" goat-grab.
    Me?
    I'm betting on EV's or some even more efficient PHEV where the "H" is the traditional gas hybrid.
    Until then?
    I've owned a diesel car before, and it wasn't a pleasant experience.
    If choosing an apple over a lemon based on the fact that eating the latter is much less appealing is an "irrational prejudice?"

    I'm OK with that.

    Example of obfuscation.
    Some diesels are SULEV qualified in the US.
    How many? Which cars?
    What percentage?
    SULEV isn't as "clean as a car can get." It's simply a standard that's being met.
    I would hope that for $60,000 and above one could meet this one standard.
    That's 2x the already inflated US new car average, and that's just the buy-in, and that's also presuming that the oil burner stays clean.
     
    #111 ETC(SS), Apr 30, 2014
  12. Former Member 68813

    Former Member 68813 Senior Member

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    I'm a bit suspicious of your numbers.
    I looked up the Skoda Greenline. 3.3 L/100km = 71.28 MPG. This is probably a best case scenario (hwy). Notice that this is manual transmission only and mild hybrid. Not exactly in the same league as real hybrid (Prius) that excels in city driving, but closer indeed.

    I'm not sure what your problem is. Fuel efficiency of Atkinson engine is very comparable to a small diesel expressed in g/kWh. Yet engine weight and complexity are much lesser. The Europe fixation with diesel (yes I lived there and owned one) had to do with cheaper diesel compared to gasoline. I see that margin shrinking rapidly though. Since USA is the opposite, gas is much cheaper than diesel, small diesels will not be very popular, at least anytime soon.
     
    #112 Former Member 68813, Apr 30, 2014
  13. cmth

    cmth Active Member

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    I quoted the numbers from autoexpress - I don't always agree with their views but haven't heard them quote incorrect figures: Most economical car 2014 | Auto Express


    No problem at all really :) and Diesel is not cheaper than petrol everywhere in Europe - here is the UK, petrol is cheaper.


    I have myself been tring to understand this "European fixation with diesels" for a while now. And here are a few possible reasons:

    * Europe has been lagging behind in Hybrid Tech (Compared to Toyota/Japan)
    * Diesel Engines have evolved greatly - R&D has paid off
    * Preference to buy European in Europe
    * Top european cars are usually better at performance, handling & overall refinement

    Now just to give an example - a close friend of mine recently bought an Audi A4 Estate. Its about the same price as a fully kitted out Prius. If we ignore NOx, its CO2 emissions and its mileage is close to Gen3 Prius but its performance is better than a Gen3 Prius, it handles extremely well and is very well built. I just couldn't help but notice how quiet it was, how well the road noise was insulated and nothing on the dashboard rattled - in fact the diesel grunt was hardly audible either. Then you put the foot on the peddle and man that torque takes you by surprise and its not like you hear the gearbox crying first - the power is instantaneous and delivered with ease. UK roads are notorious for their rough ride - on my Prius you feel all that inside but on my friends car, it was immediately noticeable now well the suspension system was soaking up the unevenness yet around a corner the car hardly rolled.

    As I said previously, I still stand by my car and Hybrid tech in general, I would most likely go for a Prius Gen4 or Lexus NX300h in the next year or two. However, I can also understand the other side of the argument, there is no denying that some european clean diesels offer a balance of virtues that are very addictive to say the least.

    If Toyota wants to really be successful with the Hybrids, they need to look towards some of the other brands and offer much better build quality and refinement especially as the price point of the Prius range is very close to leading premium cars.
     
    #113 cmth, May 1, 2014
  14. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

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    In Europe diesels sell 50-50 with gasoline cars. And just as clean (Euro 6 == SULEV in cleanliness). I'd call that "parity".

    As for sub-100 g/mile, yes, cars exist in both diesel form and gasoline form. The small 1.2 and 1.4 liter diesels meet the spec, and now the 1.0 liter Ford meets it too. (I'm surprised you didn't know this already?)
     
    #114 Troy Heagy, May 1, 2014
  15. GasperG

    GasperG Senior Member

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    Under 100 g/km not g/mile.
     
    #115 GasperG, May 1, 2014
  16. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

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    #116 Sergiospl, May 1, 2014
  17. wxman

    wxman Active Member

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    #117 wxman, May 2, 2014
  18. drash

    drash Senior Member

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    #118 drash, May 2, 2014
  19. wxman

    wxman Active Member

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    There's a vast difference between new-technology diesel engines and previous-generation diesel technology, which is what each of those links address. These totally different technologies continue to be conflated. All on-road diesel engines (trucks, buses, passenger cars) are required to meet the current emission regulations to be certified for production.
     
    #119 wxman, May 2, 2014
  20. wxman

    wxman Active Member

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    "...Regulated emissions of NMHC, CO, and PM were 95, 98, and 89 percent below the EPA 2007 standard...

    ...Unregulated emissions that included single ring aromatics, PAH, nitroPAH, alkanes, alcohol and organic acids, hopanes/steranes, carbonyls, metals and elements, organic carbon, elemental carbon, and dioxins/furans were 79 to 99 percent lower than the emissions from a similar 2004 technology engine...." (Page 83)

    Source: "Advanced Collaborative Emissions Study (ACES) Phase 1 Final Report." June 2009, Coordinating Research Council, http://www.crcao.org/reports/recentstudies2009/ACES%20Phase%201/ACES%20Phase1%20Final%20Report%2015JUN2009.pdf


    "...Regulated emissions of NOx, NMHC, CO, and PM were 61%, 100%, 97%, and 92% below the 2010 emission standards, respectively....

    ...Unregulated emissions that included single ring aromatics, PAH, oxyPAH, nitroPAH, alkanes, alcohol and organic acids, hopanes/steranes, carbonyls, metals and elements, organic carbon, elemental carbon, dioxins and furans were 50% to 99% percent lower than those emitted from 2007 technology engines tested in ACES Phase 1...." (Page 69 of 70)

    Source: "Phase 2 of the Advanced Collaborative Emissions Study - Final Report." November 2013, http://www.crcao.org/reports/recentstudies2013/ACES%20Ph2/03-17124_CRC%20ACES%20Phase2-%20FINAL%20Report_Khalek-R6-SwRI.pdf


    Gas 2 | Bridging the gap between green heads and gear heads.
     
    #120 wxman, May 2, 2014
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