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Volt may lose its european brother: Ampera discontinued?

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by telmo744, Jul 21, 2014.

  1. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

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    NEDC? GM has a long history of lying about the numbers...

    Real ones are here...

    CS Mode Ampera 6.4l/100km
    Overview: Opel - Ampera - Spritmonitor.de

    Yaris 1.0 5.5l/100km (no start-stop)
    Overview: Toyota - Yaris - Spritmonitor.de

    Prius 1.8 5.03l/100km
    Overview: Toyota - Prius - Spritmonitor.de

    Not that terrible?
     
  2. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    If GM is lying by using NEDC numbers, then so is Toyota. The Prius Spritmonitor numbers are lower than EPA(46.76mpg to 50) and the Fuelly average. The Ampera numbers(36.75 to 37) are closer to EPA than the Prius.

    The NEDC and Japan cycles are ridiculously easy tests while EPA does a decent job of getting close to real world. That is all.

    The Ampera/Volt numbers really aren't that terrible. Prius owners tend to forget that the Prius is the high outlier in regards to fuel economy. Nothing matched it until the arrival of the Prius C/Aqua, and that smaller car just matched it. Overseas, there is a wider selection of models with small gasoline or diesel engines, that make the Prius outlier less so, but all of the ones that compare to the Prius in fuel usage are smaller and slower than it. The 1.5L Yaris in the US isn't a big seller. The 1L, if brought here, would do worse.

    Compared to other hybrids and high efficiency cars, the Volt/Ampera numbers are good. Then electric use allows further reduction of gasoline use over the life of the car.
     
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  3. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

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    #23 telmo744, Jul 23, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2014
  4. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

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    The Vauxhaul Insignia hatchback with the most efficient petrol engine with 6-speed manual shift has a combined NEDC rating of 5.2l/100km or 54 mpg (Imperial) which is slightly worse than the Ampera's 5.0l/100km or around 56mpg gas-only rating.

    I used NEDC rating for the obvious reason that we're discussing cars sold in Europe and those are the efficiency ratings advertised and used on the websites and in marketing brochures in Europe.

    I haven't compared prices but it seems plausible that the Insignia is about half the price before plugin subsidies that may or may not exist. The Ampera is, after all, a much nicer driving experience for many people. I can't speak to the economics if driving electric in the European areas where the Ampera is marketed.

    As you know, the Ampera drives like an EV for the first 40-50 miles and does not start the gas engine because of vehicle speed or a driver's acceleration or power demand. That makes it an EREV like the BMW i3 with the optional range extender engine. EREVs meet the needs of some drivers who want an EV without range and other limitations and who are not ready to pay today's Tesla prices.

    In US usage, a "compliance car" is a car sold in limited areas and often in artificially limited numbers to meet a local governmental regulation. That wouldn't describe the Ampera/Volt since it is sold in many areas around the world and is easily available.
     
  5. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    Unofficial compliance car. Or a compliance car in everything but name. The PIP appears to be that too. It is said that Toyota UK didn't want to sell more than 250 a year and guess what?

    The Ampera is a nice car, it really is but it was always sold as a compromise (deliberaly?) and will was destined to fail.

    In the UK you were either a Ford or Vauxhall man (Ford or Holden in Australia) and you had one or the other. I was a Vauxhall man and have had some of their offerings in the past. But when Ford started to improve in the early 1990's Vauxhall/Opel started to drop the ball. There was a popular car here called the Omega which I think was some Aussie thing sold here under a different name. It was popular but didn't sell in massive numbers. When it was replaced it was replaced by a boring bland car (Signum) with only 4 seats which even confused our local dealer. They couldn't work out why an apparent executive car had 4 instead of 5 seats in a car that could have held 5 comfortably. A large car company doesn't drop a clanger like that without a reason. They wanted to close that particular niche and sure enough the replacement wasn't popular and had the rug pulled from under it within about 4 years. Sounds familiar to the Volt/Ampera.

    I'm more concerned for the UK Chevrolet Volt owners. They've got a relatively new, technically advanced vehicle and no dealer backup. I guess they could take it to a Vauxhall dealer but that would have been like taking a Toyota to Lexus.
     
  6. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

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    You got right into the proof of GM overrating NEDC figures...

    Overview: Opel - Insignia - Spritmonitor.de

    AVG: 8.11 l/100km...
     
  7. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    But what doesn't help is when the official ratings of plug ins completely skew the figures. The UK Ampera is meant to get 235 mpg. Ha ha ha. Sure it does on that temp rating, sometimes it gets 999+mpg and other times it gets 44 mpg UK.
     
  8. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

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  9. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    I know roughly how it works, it's the potential owners out there who see the tv commercial saying 200+ mpg and then end up feeling ripped off when they only get a quarter of that.
     
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  10. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Again, it isn't GM overstating fuel economy. It is that the NEDC test in no way reflects real world use, and produces overpromising results.

    The Prius has a 3.9L/100 km(60.3mpg US) rating under NEDC, which is far higher than the EPA 50mpg combined rating. Spritmonitor users are averaging 5.03L/100 km. Why not call out Toyota on overating the fuel economy? The Dutch have, Toyota sued over misstated fuel economy of hybrids in Europe - Left-Lane.com

    But they are wrong to sue Toyota, and you are wrong to continue to blame GM for large gaps between the NEDC rating and user reported numbers. Unless you have evidence that the car corporations aren't following the regulations laid out for the NEDC, your gripe is with your government or the EU, not them.
    The Volt got 230mpg here on an EPA prototype test method. That method was dropped after the outcry, and before any plug in got to market. The first year window sticker had a mpge number based on a fully charged car going some x distance that exceeded the EV range. That was dropped, and now they just show gas only and electric only figures. Which is the clearest, least manipulative, way of doing it.
     
  11. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

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    There is a huge difference between Toyota ratings and GM ratings.
    You can achieve NEDC numbers with the first (many of us do, and Yaris 1.0 I've driven one, got over 47MPG easily, on a run), while it is impossible to meet NEDC figures with an Opel like the Insignia as linked.
     
  12. Tony D

    Tony D Active Member

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    I firmly believe that most of the figures that are produced are BS. The only true figures (on average) are the ones logged on the likes of Fuelly, where people are basing the figures on actual real life usage of a car.
     
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  13. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

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    I can't speak about the Insignia, but I just got 46.8 mpg HV in my Volt on my drive home last night. I got 47 mpg HV on my last 1,000 mile road trip to Los Angeles and back (51.6 mpg on the way to LA).

    My lifetime average for gas-only hybrid mode is 43.09 mpg during 33,700 miles (almost 90,000 total miles) and that understates things a bit due to some experimental driving I did during the first year that pulls down my average a bit.

    The last time I calculated my one year average (a few months ago) it was 46 mpg HV during 8,339 miles of gas-only hybrid driving.
     
    #33 Jeff N, Jul 24, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2014
  14. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    Jeff N. makes a good point that the Volt seems to fill an important role in the US auto market.

    Here are some tentative implications I see:

    > In the USA we have an active electrification movement supporting BEV/PHEV. This consists of the Electrification Coalition and a number of lobby organizations (Plug In America) and any number of pro-EV web-sites, and two movies: "Who killed the eCar" and "Revenge of the eCar"

    > In addition to Federal $7500 tax incentive for Volt, in the US certain states support BEV with large additional incentives. So Colorado for example your get your Volt with $7500 Federal + ~$6000 CO state incentive. Not to mention CA HOV incetives.

    Ca. alone is approaching 60% of US PEV sales in 2014, so if you add other states with big incentives you're getting into the apparent fact that most of the US sales are related to strong state incentives on top of already big federal incentives.

    But I am convinced Volt is a very nice car that people like Jay Leno want to own...but I guess EU has fancy diesels that the EU show biz folks like better?

    Can I infer that there is a little less ideological (environmental-related) support for EV in EU? I am certainly not saying EU is less eco-mined, probably EU more eco-minded, but just not as supportive of PEV per se as the solution as we are here.
     
    #34 wjtracy, Jul 24, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2014
  15. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I don't see much of a contradiction -

    volt is not a compliance car, it has been the best selling plug-in, in the US. Opel however has failed to market the ampera well, and is killing it. Technically there is nothing wrong with the ampera, but it doesn't really satisfy the dutch and norweigen market. Outside these two markets phevs don't sell well. The dutch prefer the outlander. Mercedes recently anounced that they believe phevs are going to keep growing, and vw group is launching many phevs. This is a failure of opel, not the car, or the phev market place in europe. Perhaps gm will have better luck selling the gen II volt or a derivative in China. Pricing for phevs after government subsidies is simply too high for many sales in countries like germany or england, and its doubtful its profitable for anyone to sell phevs there that are not made in europe. Opel/vauxhall probably would have done badly even if they had promoted and priced the car correctly, but they didn't even try.

    As for mpg or L/km claims on nedc, the tests are horribly flawed.
     
    #35 austingreen, Jul 24, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2014
  16. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    Nothing like that. It's just not advertised or pushed and is overpriced. The base price here is £33,000 - £5,000 grant = £28,000. Using the US price of $34,000 converting it to £'s, adding 10% import and 20% vat and I end up with £26,400 which is what the car is actually worth. Minus the £5,000 grant for EVs and you end up with £21,400 or slightly less than a base Prius.

    GM didn't want it to sell and priced it in Mercedes E class or BMW 5 series money. It is not in that class by a long shot.
     
  17. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The Dutch group suing Toyota is doing so "because it is the world’s largest automaker and because the highest disparity was experienced with hybrid vehicles and most of these cars are built by the Japanese brand." A high disparity means that fewer owners are reaching the NEDC rating there. Drivers there must not do as bad with a GM/Opel. If many people were achieving the NEDC numbers for the Prius, then the Spritmonitior average wouldn't be worse than the Fuelly one, and the Fuelly one would exceed the EPA rating.

    You did well with the Yaris. What did you get with an Insignia on the same route?
    They're a good resource as long as you heed their limitations. There are too many variables between climate, route, and driving style to control for in the real world. So you need a large sample size and time for the numbers to be useful. Take the Accord hybrid on Fuelly. Its average there is starting to level out around the EPA combined. When the car first came out the numbers were low, and those just doing a quick search would think it was a failure. Look deeper, and they would see there was only a handful of cars listed, with about half in Canada driving through sub-zero temperature snow storms.

    The government tests are good because the parameters are known, and variables controlled for. The results may not be close to the real world, but they allow a clear comparison between models. There isn't the uncertainity of whether one car did better than another because it is more efficient, or that driver, route, etc. was more conductive for efficient results.
    I think it is simply an issue of the cars' cost. Car prices already tend to be higher there, and many manufacturers are simply jacking the price on a PEV up to pad their profits with any incentives available. Which leaves the plug ins costing more to the consumer than the diesels and even hybrids. The affordable BEV option becomes the Renaults, but that is because the battery is leased separately, with no option to buy it. That introduces more unknowns to an already new technology that need a buyer to overcome.

    Tesla and BMW aren't playing those games. So perhaps there is some hope for the European market when they introduce more affordable PEVs, or the others get serious about wanting to actually sell one there.
     
  18. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    Cars are not that much more expensive here once import duties and tax are taken into account. It does depend on the manufacturers though. Some seem to be the same as in the US when adjusted, others are way off.
     
  19. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

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    In my view a compliance car is a car *mandated* by the government. For example California mandates electric cars & fuel cell cars (ZEV) be sold. Also partial EVs (plugin priuses or volts). So carmakers "comply" with the law.

    I'm not aware of any EU state that requires ZEVs be sold. So, no compliance cars exist there.

    ELR (cadillac volt) is not selling well either. The dealers are stocked with two years of inventory since the car is only selling ~50 per month. I wouldn't be surprised to see ELR join the Ampera (discontinued).

    I don't quite understand the animosity to the Ampera/Volt. It's an electric car but without the fear of running out of range. I would never buy a ~70 mile Leaf or Fiat EV because I know I'd eventually run empty & be stranded, but I'd buy a Volt that eliminates that flaw.
     
    #39 Troy Heagy, Jul 24, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2014
  20. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    Compliance with EU rulings that a fleet must have an average fuel economy or emissions of a certain amount.

    The Aston Martin Cygnet was a compliance car. It had 70 mpg fuel economy and thus dragged up the fleet average of Aston Martin to a more acceptable level. It never sold as it was a pimped up Toyota IQ costing 3 times the price at £30,000 (just shy of the Ampera).

    So whilst the technicalities of a US and EU compliance car differ, they amount to the same thing.

    Toyota iQ - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    [​IMG]
     
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