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Bad hybrid battery problems

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by Michael K, Jul 25, 2014.

  1. Michael K

    Michael K Junior Member

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    Hello,

    I am extremely new to the forum (first post) and just purchased my prius 3 days ago. It is an 07 with 256k. i purchased it with a bad hybrid battery and have been having a huge problem with finding a used battery that isn't complete junk. After 8 hours yesterday spent installing 2 different hybrid batteries from 2 different salvage yards, I am at a point that I want to just rebuild my battery. I have done a lot of research on the subject and know that I have the knowledge to do it but there seems to be conflicting reports on whether this is a good idea or not.

    If I do it myself, besides basic tools, what type of charge will I need and how many do you recommend getting? (I've heard 14) I can't seem to find the superbrain 989 or imax b6ac except on ebay coming from China (never had great luck with this type of stuff)

    If I purchase a battery, who would you recommend?
     
  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    welcome! i know nothing about rebuilding batteries, but there are numerous technical threads here you can search and peruse. all the best with your project car, i applaud your tenacity!(y)
     
  3. jdcollins5

    jdcollins5 Senior Member

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    You can order a rebuilt battery from Dorman through most local automotive stores; Advance Auto, Auto Zone, etc. Re-Involt , a company in Sanford, NC, has been rebuilding Prius batteries for years now and several on here have installed their batteries with continued success. Dorman bought Re-Involt and made the batteries available through automotive stores.

    For a new battery you can purchase at your Toyota dealer and install yourself.

    What kinds of problems did you encounter with the salvage batteries?
     
  4. jdenenberg

    jdenenberg EE Professor

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    Go to mellor's automotive as they are a good, independent Hybrid repair facility in Florida. Getting a salvaged HV battery in a hot climate is unlikely as heat is the enemy. Our HV batteries do not do well in southern climes.

    JeffD
     
  5. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

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    I would recommend you find someone with previous prius pack knowledge to help you.
    A rebuild can be done successfully, from what I've read, but from my experience with the other brands pack
    it's no walk in the park kinda deal.
    And there are lots of different methods posted on the net with varying levels of rebalanced pack results.

    I would have never gotten my unbalanced pack back in serviceable condition without a bit of hand holding as I learned how to use the
    tools to fix the pack.

    I'd suggest contacting someone who will answer your questions about the rebalancing process in a way you understand and then follow that lead.

    My understanding is that hobby chargers, even the superbrain or a quad, will take at least a few weeks to balance one pack, with dubious results, but it is a learning experience if nothing else.

    jdenenberg
    Jeff, do you know what year insite that is pictured on mellor's automotive Welcome page?
     
    #5 vvillovv, Jul 25, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2014
  6. Michael K

    Michael K Junior Member

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    They had bad cells that caused reverse voltage (same problem my Prius currently has). The mechanic that I had two the 2 installs yesterday only works on hybrids but he wants too much for a rebuilt battery. My thought is that even if my rebuild only lasts a year and costs be ~$450, rebuilding it again would only cost <$100.
     
  7. Michael K

    Michael K Junior Member

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    Right now my biggest question is: can the car run without the battery in the car?
     
  8. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

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  9. flxcon

    flxcon Junior Member

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    If you have the tools, you can do it yourself, or there many people that rebalance for $350.
    Where are you located?
     
  10. Michael K

    Michael K Junior Member

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    I know I CAN do it... but trying to determine the cost difference vs purchasing one already done.

    My biggest concern at this point is whether the car can drive without the battery. My wife and I have 2 cars but work different directions from home and being without a car would be an issue. (Right now we drive the prius but know it isn't good for the batteries)
     
  11. jdenenberg

    jdenenberg EE Professor

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    No, the battery needs to be able to spin the engine (ICE) as the 12v battery is not used to start the engine in a Prius.

    If I needed an HV battery today for my Gen2 (2004) Prius, I would get a salvaged Gen3 battery from a wreck in a northern clime and rebuild it's modules to swap them as a group into my existing Gen2 battery. Since I live in a northern clime, it is likely that most of my existing modules would recover to a reasonable capacity when balanced and could be sold in blocks with documented performance characteristics to others rebuilding their HV batteries. My cost would then be about $300-$500 using current material valuation (~$1000 for the salvaged pack minus ~$600 selling refurbed modules.

    JeffD

    ps. no I don't know the year of that car.
     
    vvillovv likes this.
  12. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

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    Cell reversal is a fairly extreme fault in the pack, and requires module replacement, if the module / modules are in fact revered and not just low.

    I wouldn't have pulled the original pack until I knew the pack I was replacing it with was better than the pack in the car.
    Are you reading the odb codes before and after you switch packs?
    Find out which pack is healthiest and use the others as crash test dummies.

    But that's just how I see it, as always YMMV
    and good luck.
     
  13. Michael K

    Michael K Junior Member

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    I was quoting what the mechanic told my wife yesterday. Or what my wife told me he said... This is another reason I want to do it myself. As a mechanic, I would have thought he would have checked the battery over completely before installing it... Especially after the first one was bad. Luckily for me, the salvage yards took the batteries back with no problems.
     
    #13 Michael K, Jul 25, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2014
  14. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

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    In one of your posts above you mentioned the mechanic has rebuilt packs for sale at a price that is too high for your budget ( paraphrasing)..
    And you are looking to spend around $350 on the repair initially?
    If you already had the tools to charge the faulty packs it would still cost more than $350
    Look at jdenenburgs numbers above. They are consistent with what I've seen for salvage prius packs, and it appears he knows a bit more about prius packs then I do. :)

    Tinkering with HV module reconditioning but not seeing improvement | PriusChat
     
    #14 vvillovv, Jul 25, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2014
  15. Michael K

    Michael K Junior Member

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    I had purchased a salvage pack for $950. The mechanic wants over $1500 for one PLUS installation and will only guarantee the pack for 6 months.

    I figured I would need 7 charges @ $30 each = $210
    Between 2-4 cells @ $45 each = $180

    I rounded up to $450 for the first rebuild.

    And it's not that it is out of my budget but getting too close to NEW prices... and without a good warranty backed by a large corporation
     
  16. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

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    That is certainly a consideration you have to account for.
    If I were confident in the condition and warranty of a new pack for the other brand, I probably would have gone that way myself for my 06
     
  17. jdenenberg

    jdenenberg EE Professor

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    If you buy a low mileage Gen3 battery you will get better (younger) modules that after rebalancing (4 chargers gets the job done in less than two weeks), load testing to determine effective series resistance ( a few hours) , and equalizing (30 minutes - put them in parallel) you swap them into your existing HV shell. Done carefully, your rebuilt battery should be good for several years. You then get to play with your old modules and see if any of them are good enough to sell to others for about $30 each (plus shipping).

    I opted for a ReInVolt (now Dorman) 2+ years ago at $1600 plus $400 installation by my Toyota dealer to quickly get my 2004 going at 195k miles (2.5 years ago) which gave me the opportunity to educate myself using my old modules (27 of 28 were still serviceable) Now at 260k miles the Prius is still going strong.

    Note that even the $2000 cost was only $0.01 per mile and I cleared about $700 selling my 27 (the 28th had a reverse cell) refurbished modules.

    JeffD
     
    #17 jdenenberg, Jul 25, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2014
    Data Daedalus and dorunron like this.
  18. Michael K

    Michael K Junior Member

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    If I could find a gen3 battery (and convince my wife that I will recoup some of the money) that would be awesome but I still haven't located one.
     
  19. ericbecky

    ericbecky Hybrid Battery Hero

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    Cores from salvage yards are a crap shoot.
    They are more than happy to take yours back and give you another. Since they are not the ones doing the labor to install/remove.

    With big companies like doorman in the mix, the price of junkyard batteries has risen dramatically. Especially in my neck of the woods.
    When you get to the point that you need some modules, let me know.

    When you get through the initial rebuild, remember to keep some extra since you will need to do it again sometime in the future.
    Don't be in a hurry when charging them. Slow and steady is better. I see too many people on this forum making a race out of it, rather than being gentle on the cells when they are on the ends of the SOC range. Unless you go slow, the cells will be unable to dissipate the extra amperage safely.

    Best of luck in finding what you need. You may even want to consider a junked car if you can sell the other parts, but keep the battery pack.
     
  20. Michael K

    Michael K Junior Member

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    I found a battery from a 2008 Prius with only 28k but it was totaled in 2010. The seller PROMISED (laughable) that it is good and was only removed from the car a month ago. I'm gonna bring my multimeter and socket set and test every cell. Anything else anyone can suggest doing to make sure the battery is good before attempting a 3rd install?