True? Toyota just killed the PiP?

Gee - it's GREAT to see we have an authority who knows WAY more than the prez of Toyota . . . .

Toyota Admits It'll Take Until 2030 to Make Fuel Cell Vehicles Cost Competitive With EVs | Inside EVs

. . . . even as he continues to admit the same blather stated since the 1970's . . . . that hydrogen cars will be "ONLY 10 more years from now" at the soonest. Seems like there must be plenty of cool-aid to go around for the gulible ones. So .... Charlie Brown continues to believe that Lucy won't pull the football out from under him. That said . . . . it's incredible that the U.S. would prefer to pay for Japans pet money wasting project - and for what . . . . so Japan can build cars in Japan? . . . . sorry Tesla . . . . I guess no one sees the benefit any more of U.S. manufactureing. No wonder our economy sucks.
.

 

Hostility leads to nowhere. Although I didn't fully understand it before, I now see the complete logic in plug in hybrids. It makes the same car even better, which was pretty darn good to begin with.

"Right Now", which is what I was addressing previously, electric vehicles are impractical for most drivers. I heartily applaud Musk's big gamble on batteries, and I don't doubt for a minute that he'll lead the way. It could very well lead to double the range, and far faster recharging. But that's not available now. I'm still trying to catch up on the obstacles of fuel cells and hydrogen, so I can't comment on them in any meaningful way.

Just a quick glance at the Prius, it looks like a $$$ upgrade from the standard model Prius. As hybrid technology continues to evolve, it would make sense to offer more and more plug in models, and hopefully be able to reduce the MSRP's of them. People in general are pretty enthused over what's happened with hybrids, with the Ford Fusion and Accord hybrids being fun to drive, and no negative impacts in the driving experience, only the wallet.

The car market is a very large place, and more hybrid models will be filling each segment as the technology improves. I wouldn't fret at all over Toyota's stopping the ev models, since they could easily start back up if the technology improved greatly. Until then, I would think the big push would be to get as many plug ins as possible. For the mainstream market, meaning volume, that's just not doable at current prices. Not many people are going to shell out $30k to over $40k for a lackluster car just because it's a plug in with great efficiency.

But people will shell out some dough for a hybrid that's even better than the gas only counterpart, especially if it drives as well, meaning enjoyable, good cornering, etc.. It's being done now, and the cars on the market will only get better.

 

When was the last time you drove non-stop for 700 miles?

The Tesla S is pricy, but so were the first ICE cars. By the time FCEV get some numbers on South California roads, there will be a cheaper Tesla model. No 700mile range (why the jump from the usual 500?), but more than enough for daily use. Superchargers might be too inconvinent for some, but this next one might have an Al-air battery range extender. It can't do 700 miles non-stop still, but stopping about every 200 to fill up on distilled water isn't bad.

How can they be made cheaper? I assume that you are counting the battery as the expensive bit. A FCEV has a battery at least as big a hybrid's. In order to be cheaper, the fuel cell stack and hydrogen tanks will have to become cheaper than the ICE and its fuel tank.
I know hydrogen is lighter than air, but a carbon fiber tank tank con hold 5kg of the stuff weighs close to 200 pounds. The techniques that would get a FCEV lighter can be used on a hybrid and electric.

The electricity from a Tesla charging station just gets sold to the grid when it isn't charging a car. if it needs more than it can produce to charge up a set of cars, it gets some from the grid. Power out? Well, a hydrogen or gas station won't be pumping fuel either.

It will only be environmentally friendly and renewable if people are forced to pay the higher cost to do so. As it stands, fuel cell cars will just shift us from petroleum to natural gas. Which will lead to the same levels of CO2 emissions as burn the NG in an ICE.
[quoe]And OIL COMPANIES certainly will back them up. Exxon and the other oil companies have huge profits. They see the writing on the wall when it comes to harsher limitations on gas cars. And Hydrogen Fuel Cells are certainly an alternative source of fuel for cars that they an do easily.[/quote]Then why did the oil companies take CARB to court to keep from being forced into the hydrogen car refueling business?

Electric cars don't need separate refueling stations. They just need electric service at their owner's house.

First, BEVs are a poor choice for taxi service, or any near non-stop use. They'll have more down time for charging, and the batteries will need replacing sooner. Second, Japan's experiment with BEVs was done before the use of lithium batteries. People love the EV1, but the Leaf blows it away in capability.

The vast majority of cars on the road aren't taxis though. They are cars that get driven, maybe, 3 hours a day at most. Most of the time they sit. Which allows plenty of time to charge a BEV at a non-damaging rate.

Once they get a plug or use methanol. Then they have a shot. Until then, plug ins aren't sitting still.

 

my tops is about 600 on the way to florida, but we know some crazy canadiens who do it in 24 hours straight!

 

Realistically, the vast majority of hydrogen for fuel cells will come from natural gas and it's CO2 emissions with few renewable hydrogen sources.

You make several comparisons against "hybrids". Fuel cell cars are themselves hybrids with typical gas hybrid-sized battery packs. I will assume you mean "gasoline hybrid below".

Huh? The longest range for a fuel cell car today is around 250-300 miles, as far as I know. A Prius exceeds that and larger gas tanks are trivial in a typical car but larger hydrogen tanks are not.

Huh? The power output of proposed fuel cell stacks is no larger than typical small gas hybrid engines.

I doubt that a fuel cell stack plus hydrogen tanks is significantly lighter than the equivalent gasoline engine and tank.

Huh? A gas engine and tank will be far cheaper than a fuel cell stack and hydrogen tank for likely several decades to come.

Huh? How is storing "fuel cells" at a hydrogen fueling station relevant to refueling fuel cell cars?

Tesla charging could be trivially installed at any traditional gas station -- even in remote rural areas without high power electric lines. Stationary propane powered generators good for 120+ kW are easily available for under $30,000. Of course, this would not be ideal but it certainly would allow supercharging even in remote areas. Such an installation is very likely cheaper than adding hydrogen fueling capability.

 

Here's a great link to let folks seeking to catch up on hydrogen cars:

The Hydrogen Hoax - The New Atlantis


and here's the author's Bio (shores up doubts anyone may have that the guy knows what he's talking about)
Robert Zubrin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

good reading!
.

 

Well we did have that astranaut that put on depnds so she wouldn't have to stop to go to the bathroom
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/06/us/06cnd-astronaut.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

But how does a normal person, you know without adult diapers, make it 600 miles without a stop. My bladder typically heavily cafinated on long trips, often needs to stop before my prius does for gas

But defintely agree that if you frequently make these 600+ mile trips, a phev is going to do you better than a bev. That bathroom break fill up is faster. With my drive pattern which is to hop on a plane if I'm going further than dallas or houston, a 200 mile bev with quick charging like teh tesla S 60kwh is fine On a daily commute I rarely go more than 25 miles, but often use lots of ac, so a 30 mile phev also would have a large percentage of electric miles.

 

I've heard that truckers use Gatorade bottles.

 

Most of our long trips are over 300 miles, a daily commute is 80 plus. One huge advantage of any hybrid is not having to fill up for at least 400 miles, and many more is easily possible. It took me about 4-5 minutes total to refill less than ten gallons yesterday. I can't imagine having to wait for the charge times for an bev.

 

To each their own I guess.
I can't imagine having to wait at a pump for a gasoline vehicle.

 

Well it's a lot less traumatic than some other cars that need a full charge. We'll be going on a trip in two weeks that's around 380 miles or so. That trip would be a real doozy in a new Tesla

 

Since getting married, the great majority of my rest stops are at places that don't sell fuel.

Around here, they use milk jugs. See the state poster displayed in this story:
Highway workers lament increase of human waste

 

You spent 4-5 minutes of your life filling up on petrol. When I fill up the Leaf it takes me about 30 seconds total to go from empty to full. I get out of the car, plug it in and go away. When I return it is full and I spend another few seconds unplugging closing the port and driving away. I hate having to wait at a gas station for an available pump, then wait to fill it up with a handle that has been who knows where...

 

At least once year we travel to my parents, which is about 600miles. A Tesla S85 would add, maybe an hour to the trip. Charging will mostly coincide with stopping to eat and other breaks. Otherwise we'll each have a book or a game to pass time if we didn't want to eat or shop during the three 20 minute charges.

So charging will 'waste' my time for 2 hours a year because of this trip. For the rest of the year none of my time will be wasted refueling the car. Get home, plug it in, and that's it. With a non-plug in I would be wasting 4 to 5 minutes every week, or over 3 hours a year. A hybrid might cut the number of fills and time in half, and take less total time a year than the Tesla, but those 5 minute chunks are mostly dead time. Time completely loss. There isn't the time to do anything really productive. You can't combine it with time for another errand.

Would you want a smart phone that ran for a whole week, but to charge it you had to go to the phone store once a week for 5 minutes?

 

Or go to a gas station to refuel a phone?

That Nissan Leaf Ad was funny....

 

Thanks for sharing! I don't watch commercials so I had never seen this one, but it is a good one. Nice little jab at the Volt in there. I wonder if most people looking to buy the Leaf know what the Volt is. I know the general masses sure don't know what it is...

 

once Tesla's infrastructure is built out completely - if you took a break around mile 220 of your trip - you could charge up the remaining 160 miles (super charging) in about 30 minutes .... which is about as much time as it takes to stretch your legs, & get a quick bite to eat. I suppose modernly that's too onerous for some ... but hey, if its a choice between conservation & the self centered alternative of "screw the users 10 years from now... don't bother me about it until we hit critical mass " ... Is that what our community has come to? .... where we'd rather stick our heads in the sand instead of being forward looking?
.

 

My wife and I recently took a 5,000 mile vacation out to California and back. It was the most relaxing vacation I have ever had. I was only waiting for a charge twice, and next year the same trip won't require me to wait at all.

 

Careful what you wish for:

Then we see this today:

Perhaps not Nobel Prize ready, it certainly deserves an 'Edison.'

Bob Wilson

 

When the analogies get this silly, it just gets too silly.

At any rate, I learn more. Tax credits.
The Leaf supposedly has 6 KWH at full charge.
From Nissan's site

"A tax credit of up to $7,500 is allowed for the purchase of a new qualified plug‐in electric drive motor vehicle that is placed in service. An amount of $2,500 is allowed per vehicle. An additional $417 is allowed for the first 5 kilowatt hours of capacity plus $417 for every kilowatt hour of capacity over 5 kilowatt hours, up to a total of $5,000.

A New Qualified Plug‐In Electric Drive Motor Vehicle means a vehicle for which the original use begins with the taxpayer, is acquired for use or lease by the taxpayer, not resale, is made by a manufacturer, has a gross weight of less than 14,000 pounds, and is propelled to a significant extent by an electric motor that draws electricity from a battery. "

As I understand it, the Up To 7,500 credit means for those that have federal tax of that. If your tax for the year is less, so is the credit.
​

So for the Leaf,

Then the charging options:

Nissan LEAF® Electric Car Charging​

I didn't know about the $999 home charger.

People should be well informed as to all purchases, there are pros and cons to everything. At this time, the vehicles that would make sense to us are gas hybrids and plug in hybrids. The efficiencies of the plug in vehicles is amazing, with nothing detrimental except some added costs, partially offset by tax credits. As I've stated, I think the EV's are remarkable advances. But with what we know now, I don;t think eve's will have significant market share for awhile. It also appears that the fuel cells will take even longer, if ever.