optima yellow tip overrated?

I watched a documentary on planned obsolescence the other day. It really is a serious business to be able to engineer a predictable lifespan into a product. The trick is getting the customer to accept the idea of replacing a product just slightly after their expectations for it's longevity have been met.

Sometimes those expectations tend creep backward, little by little, over time. I remember when fluorescent light tubes seemed to last nearly forever. In the last few years, they don't seem to last more than a year or two.

Car batteries used to last a lot longer. I remember my dad saying the old ones lasted 20 years or more. Then someone discovered that solid lead plates could be replaced with a porous type of lead, which could deliver more cranking-amps, but tended to be damaged by deep discharges. People started to think of car batteries more as disposable, like flashlight batteries.

Of course, there's sometimes the longer-life, more expensive alternative, for those of us who aren't to be fooled, but they'd rather get their money out of us once, instead of us going away angry because a product wouldn't meet our expectations.

 

I may have seen that same documentary a while ago too Greg, was it a BBC effort?

I agree that car batteries lasted longer in the past, aside from the Varta batteries that were huge honkin things in my benz. At that time they used to locate them in the engine compartment, later they added a secondary firewall and put them in there away from the engine heat.

I cannot and don't say that any battery for our cars lasts longer than any other. I was going to buy an Excide but only could source older neglected shelf stock here and ended up with an Optima. Couldn't justify the more expensive dealer battery as again, why would I expect it to last and longer so go for the reasonable deal.

Funny that people twist things.... clearly there seems to be some effort to smear one make of battery, overlook the issues on another. Me and others here who bought an Optima get painted as worshippers? I'm just wondering aloud why the need to bash those who buy, or own one make of battery when they are all the same thing.

Get what fits, get it fresh and at a fair price and look after it... but don't go around bashing the other brands or people. There is no value in that sort of 'advice', and I use the term very loosely.

Planned obsolescence or sever cost cutting may be the root of it. Seems to have played some pat in the GM parts recall too.

Roland

 

Hardly "anecdotal evidence", The one battery that is 21 years old and still strong, could be"anecdotal evidence", but I also have more than a dozen spiral cell AGM valve regulated batteries in a variety of machines that are used in many different ways , all have run 15-20 years on the same battery. The only common factor in all these machines is that they were fitted with Optima or Exide Orbital spiral cell AGM batteries. Those spiral cell AGM batteries have already outlasted the original flat plate flooded cell batteries 2-3 times.

 

Don't forget that the old lead/antimony flooded batteries had to be fed water frequently (weekly?), were big/heavy, and had huge self-discharge. The move to the modern "maintanace free" ones is a huge step forward even if they last up to 10 years. There are 2 things that kill modern car batteries:
1. Heat. There is much more of that not so much from global warming, but mostly from increased performance of engines (doesn't apply to prius and some other rare cars with a battery in trunk or cabin).
2. Full discharge. Some people are careless or clueless enough to avoid those.

 

I noticed that you used past tense. Wasn't Optima acquired by another company fairly recently?

 

That's great that you and other members have had excellent experience with older Optima and Exide spiral cell AGM batteries. However the rest of us cannot buy the same old batteries that you have relied upon for decades. We have to buy new battery inventory.

A quick search reveals many threads from PC members who posted about bad recent experiences with relatively new Optima:

Beware of Internet Batteries! | PriusChat
Battery??? | PriusChat
Intermittent 12v power failure. | PriusChat
Odd (and alarming) failure mode of Optima 12V battery | PriusChat
New Optima Battery DOA (almost); And Getting Worse | PriusChat
Just replaced my 12v battery with a Yellow Top Optima and I am experiencing some issues | PriusChat
How long do Optima Yellow Top batteries last in a 2G Prius? | PriusChat
Optima Yellow Top (DS46B24R) vs OEM Battery (36AmpHour) | Page 2 | PriusChat
Optima battery bad "again" | PriusChat
12 volt battery drain? or Converter Charging?? | PriusChat
Trickle charger and 12 volt battery | PriusChat
My nightmare began with $175.00 Yellow Top Battery | PriusChat

And there are probably many more threads you could find if you spent a few more minutes than I did.

There is no doubt that the GS Yuasa battery sold as original equipment and also sold by Toyota dealers for replacement purposes is not perfect.

However, my personal experience has been that the four 12V AGM batteries (one Panasonic, three GS Yuasa) that I have bought from Toyota dealer parts counters have been fully charged, 12.9V out of the box. This was also true regarding the TrueStart battery I bought for my HiHy.

I haven't seen any posts from PC members complaining that the new battery they bought from a Toyota dealer was not properly charged. If anyone out there can find such posts, please provide a link for our reading benefit.

Britprius, one of our English PC members was the first to point out the US availability of the Exide AGM battery for Prius and I bought one of those here locally. That was charged and ready to go.

I don't think it is too much to expect that a new 12V battery should be fully-charged at the point of purchase. To the extent that an Optima battery does not meet that expectation, shame on the brand and its retailers.

For many years, the Toyota retail price remained at $138 for the GS Yuasa battery which was a bargain. In my opinion it was a no-brainer to buy that battery from your local Toyota dealer, knowing it was manufactured in Japan and part of the cost was to have it shipped across the Pacific Ocean.

Recently the list price was moved up to ~$180 which provided a price umbrella for Optima and Exide. At that price I think it is reasonable for owners to expect perfection from a new battery.

Prius owners are a diverse group and that is good. It is reasonable there will be a difference of opinion on any number of topics. (That difference of opinion among the general population manages to sustain the two major political parties in this country.)

If you as an owner decide to buy Optima after seeing some of the posts that I've seen over the years here, more power to you. Good luck with that choice.

 

It looks like Johnson Controls still owns Optima, as they have since 2000. They did move production from Colorado to Mexico a few years ago.


I have not purchased an Optima for a few years, as the Exide Orbital seems to give me equal quality and performance for less $$. My latest Exide Orbital purchased in 2013

 

It was Yuasa that was purchased by Exide most recently. As I've said more than once in various threads here, to each his own, and I've said that I expect that all the brands of batteries are largely the same and I have expectations in line with that.
Also, after buying an Optima when I could not get a fresh exide locally when I was ready to buy, I said that until at least 5 years or so have passed, if they do, would I be able to make any sort of comment on them of a meaningful nature.
Maybe it is simply because I do now own one, that I notice many negative comments from posters who freely admit they never have had one, but profess to know that not only the Optima batteries, but the people who have purchased them are less than perfect.
That is the basis for my objections and concerns with that sort of approach. Simply spreading FUD
These types then invent more crude along the lines of me worshipping at the alter and bashing other brands... nothing could be further from the truth.

Roland

 

I get what your saying Patrick.
Just my great experience with both the Optima and Exide Orbital brands as new as 2013, makes it hard for me to believe that the battery have a quality problem.
I see several posts stating that their Optima battery in a Prius is only showing 12.2-12.5 volts, when full charge voltage on an AGM battery should be 12.9V ???? That low voltage tells me that the battery is much less than full charged, which will eventually destroy it from sulfation. Does the Prius charging system not fully charge the battery at a fast enough rate, do the parasitic loads drain the battery while the car is parked, or do owners habits or short trips prevent a full charge ??

 

???

There is a company named Yuasa which makes motorcycle batteries and had a prior relationship with Exide, but this company is not the same as GS Yuasa. Yuasa was a former US-based joint venture between GS Yuasa and General Battery, dating back to 1977. That JV became affiliated with Exide in 1987 when General Battery sold to Exide.
Yuasa Batteries -

GS Yuasa is a Japanese company with its headquarters in Kyoto. That is the battery manufacturer who supplies Toyota with 12V AGM batteries.
Corporate Information Corporate Profile | GS Yuasa Corporation
http://www.gs-yuasa.com/us/corporate/pdf/a4_history(e).pdf

Yes Jon, you are correct. The Prius DC/DC converter typically will output 13.8VDC or even less. A good charging voltage for the battery would be more like 14.4VDC. The 0.6V makes a big difference with regards to the amount of time needed to properly charge the battery, hence most Prius batteries go through their life in a semi-discharged state. And their owners are surprised when the battery is discharged and they think it should be recharged after 10 minutes of driving.

 

Yuasa made motorbike batteries in the states, and car batteries in china... since you've recently read up on them, is it GS Yuasa that made Dreamliner batteries and Chinese auto batteries or is GS Yuasa, which I did not know was isolated from Exide mixed in there? And do you know if Exide has emerged from chapter 11 again yet or is that still in effect?

Roland

 

I don't know the Dreamliner brand.

GS Yuasa in Kyoto still has what looks like a parent - child relationship with Yuasa Battery which is located in PA. And GS Yuasa also has business interests in China so they undoubtedly are producing batteries in that country.
Corporate Information Management Structure | GS Yuasa Corporation

Looks like Exide is still in Chapter 11 bankruptcy proceedings.
Exide Technologies Case Administration Website
ExideRestructures.com

 

I mistakenly thought of Yuasa as being one entity.

Dreamliner isn't a brand, Boeing is. I think Yuasa made the Lithium batteries for that airliner. I only mention this as I wonder if the gen IV Prius is going to switch both the 12 volt and big traction battery over to Lithium.

Roland

 

Thanks for the reply Patrick.
I was having a hard time understanding how that gently used little deep cycle battery in it's cool rear nest could be worn out at only 4-5 years old.
Your comments about the low, almost float level charging voltage makes me think, maybe it's not worn out, just that it is so clogged with sulfation at 4-5 years that it can no longer function.
Any way to hack the charging system to set the charging voltage / rate a little higher. My 15-20 year old AGM starting batteries are not dried out with an average 14.2-14.6 charging voltage for their entire life.

 

Yes, eventually the durability just goes away. It's all part of the business plan.

 

I find that some "climate deniers" have interesting stories to tell. Some would call them skeptics.

 

I'm not aware of a way. You'd have to figure out the voltage regulation method in the DC/DC converter.

It might rely upon a component as simple as a zener diode, and if so you could install one which operates at 0.6V higher to raise up the output voltage correspondingly. There is a feedback loop involved, since a "SENSE" wire and fuse runs to the 12V battery positive terminal to help the DC/DC converter know the voltage at the 12V battery.

As designed, the Prius 12V charging system is really intended for owners who log many miles annually, like taxi drivers, couriers, people who commute 50+ miles one-way, etc. The rest of the owner population gets to buy 12V batteries periodically or else should charge their 12V batteries monthly.

 

ONLY when you make ridiculous statements like that.

YOU twist things by praising something that others don't think deserves that kind of praise.

It's all a matter of perspective and only gets bad when someone (you) starts bashing other PEOPLE and their opinions instead of discussing the products.

Give it a rest, please.

 

And all of your "samples" were made at least 15 years ago.

I am not necessarily saying this is the case here but it is kind of hard to find things that have the same build quality and longevity that they did 20 years ago. All kinds of companies think they NEED to increase profits every year and when they can't do that by increasing sales or prices, they cut costs.......which often results in a downward spiral of quality.

 

I don't buy their excuses that build quality has to go down to remain competitive. There's always a market for durability.

A case in point is the way Toyota and other foreign automakers were kicking Detroit's butt by making cars that far outlasted their own. They raised the customers' expectations about how long a car should last. That's why cars are lasting longer than they used to, instead of the reverse.