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Recurrent Power Failure After HV Battery Replacement - help!

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by tarawow, Aug 16, 2014.

  1. tarawow

    tarawow Junior Member

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    Hi all,

    I previously posted about this, and I'm back. Here's a history: I have an 05 Prius which had no significant problems until the HV battery died this past Feb. Two days later, I'm on the highway and lose power, manage to get the car to an off ramp. Have it towed to a dealer where the power failure pulled up code DTC P3190 and I was told that the car was simply car out of gas. The car was at 3 pips without any indicator going off but after consulting this forum I thought "Okay, maybe this is just the new normal." Filled my car with 5 gallons worth of gas which topped it off (?) and went on my way.

    I'll add here for lack of a better place that with the new battery the car has not ever seemed to accelerate cleanly - always feels like there's some resistance on the accelerator when trying to go above 50 on the highway.

    Cut to yesterday - I lost power on the highway 3 miles from home with the car at 7 pips (!). I had only put 130 miles on the car since last filling the tank so I can *not* imagine this is a fuel issue. And, worse than ever before, this time when the engine failed I had only about 1000 feet to get over to the shoulder. I did manage to get over safely (for those in SoCal, this was on the 5 North and I narrowly missed blocking the ramps to the 134). To make matters even worse it rush hour in 95+ heat, and I was pinned in my car for 20 minutes (traffic on one side, retaining wall on the other) until the tow truck arrived. I cannot have this happen again.

    I had the car towed to the dealer this morning. When the car was picked up the car was at 7 pips in my driveway. The dealer states when the car was dropped of there it was at 1 pip, and sent me a picture of the odometer to verify. Wth?!

    How is this possible? How could the gauge have dropped so rapidly? Is there a legitimate way the fuel indicator could have dropped so much or is the dealer scamming me?

    And what could be be wrong? The AAA driver this morning said they should have replaced the accessory battery when they replaced the hybrid battery (which they did not, nor did they advise me to do so), and perhaps that was the source of the problem?

    Thoughts? Advice? I am planning to have this dealer just do a diagnostic and pull the code/s, then get it towed and diagnosed at a different dealer to verify what's going on. I just know I won't trust whatever I hear from this dealer short of them offering to replace the HV battery again (which I am fairly certain they will not do). Any other thoughts on how to handle this?

    Help please!

    Thanks - T
     
    #1 tarawow, Aug 16, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2014
  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    how many miles on her?

    they shouldn't replace the 12 volt battery when they replace the hybrid battery, but you should have it tested to see if it needs replacing.

    regarding the gas gauge, how many miles are you driving before refueling? if it was at one pip, take the service manager to the station with you and see how many gallons it takes.

    is the replacement hybrid battery new or rebuilt?
     
    #2 bisco, Aug 16, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 16, 2014
  3. tarawow

    tarawow Junior Member

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    Hi Bisco,

    Thanks for asking. Let me see if I can hit everything:

    - about 129,000 miles
    - am planning to ask them to test the 12 volt battery as well as the fuel line. Thanks for the info. Wasn't sure if replacing the 12 volt along with the HV was standard operating procedure
    - generally speaking these days, I can go about 230-250 miles and that takes it down to 4 pips, wherein I lose power (occasionally). On this occasion, I had driven 130 miles exactly since I last filled up, and that brought it down to 7 pips (which is about right) when the car failed. The dealer asked me if someone in the neighborhood could be stealing gas from the car. I had to explain that the car is stored in a locked carport, and to go from 7 pips in my driveway at 7:30am to 1 pip at the dealer 35 minutes later that person would have had to have been stealing the fuel while the car was being towed for that to be true. Sigh.
    - the new HV battery was supposed to be, well, new since it was covered under the 10 yr/150k warranty. But I suspect and wouldn't be surprised if they just replaced a cell or two instead of the whole battery

    About to call the dealer. If there's anything else you can think of that I should be asking, please let me know!

    Thanks again!
     
  4. HTMLSpinnr

    HTMLSpinnr Super Moderator
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    ** Moderator note - Post relocated to Gen 2 forum **
     
  5. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    One way the fuel gauge could drop so much would be if the 12V battery died, which would cause the fuel gauge memory to be lost and reset when the car was turned back on. It would take a while for the correct fuel gauge reading to register.

    I agree that the 12V battery should be checked and if there is any doubt it should be replaced now. If the 12V battery is weak, any DTC logged by the vehicle ECUs will be lost so the dealer tech would have to replicate the problem before s/he could say much about the root cause.

    When the car died yesterday, exactly what warning lights came on? Did you take a sharp photo of those lights? If so pls post.
     
  6. Former Member 68813

    Former Member 68813 Senior Member

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    If you google for DTC P3190, this document shows up: priuschat.com/attachments/cip3190a-pdf.19548/
    Print it, take it to the dealer and ask them to troubleshoot it the proper way like toyota clearly instructs instead of blaming it on low gas.
    Or go to a different dealership that is not as lazy and incompetent.
     
  7. tarawow

    tarawow Junior Member

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    That document is amazing friendly-jacek - thank you! And thanks Patrick for the reasonable explanation as to why/how the gauge readings could be so different. I stupidly didn't take a pick of the warning lights, but they were the red triangle of doom, the yellow circle w/exclamation point, and the check engine light.

    Dealer called yesterday afternoon and they pulled the following codes:
    DTC 3190
    C 2318
    C 2300

    and said were going to look into the accessory battery and the fuel sending unit. They called back today and said the issue is definitely 100% the accessory battery. I am fighting with them on the price for the cost and repair (quoting me $320 for parts and labor), since this is an issue I feel they should have caught back in February. They told me no, and that my independent shop should have tested the battery at my 125K service and caught it then (they also told me that 9 years on the accessory battery is a ridiculously long time - they generally last only 4 years) - are either of these true?

    I don't know what if anything to believe from these guys. I'll search the old threads for answers on the accessory battery life as well..
     
  8. tarawow

    tarawow Junior Member

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    Quick update. Dealer confirmed that the 12V battery is the issue, and indeed form the forums it seems like I squeezed a lot of life out of it (though I am now searching through my old service paperwork to see if I didn't have it replaced back in '09/'10).

    However getting the dealer to do right by me on this has not been easy. Methinks I will be seeing them in small claims court...
     
  9. nh7o

    nh7o Off grid since 1980

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    9 years is a long time for the 12V battery. Many people would be proactive in replacing it before that time, but most people experience some sort of failure earlier. 4 years is rather too short, and most will get more life than that. $320 to replace the 12V is about what Toyota charges. Some places less. It is such an easy DIY job that no one with opposable thumbs and a youtube video would have a problem with it.
     
  10. Former Member 68813

    Former Member 68813 Senior Member

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    That C 2318 does point to week 12V battery. I'm surprised it would trigger the other codes. The lesson from this is test/replace 12V first before doing enything else.
     
  11. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    $320 isn't bad because the list price of the battery is ~$180 and you have to pay for the labor time associated with diagnosis and replacement.

    It is true that 9 years is an extremely long service life for the battery, I usually recommend that owners replace the battery proactively from 4-6 years depending upon how cold their winters are and how many miles the car is driven (the more, the better for battery longevity.) Besides avoiding the no-start issue you had, another benefit of changing the battery at a time and place of your choosing is that you get to shop around and satisfy yourself that you are getting a good financial deal.

    You should be happy that your car has no other issue besides the 12V battery, and pay the invoice with a smile.
     
    The Electric Me likes this.
  12. tarawow

    tarawow Junior Member

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    Am I crazy? Shouldn't they have caught this back in February? They insisted it was just a low fuel issue at the time, didn't test for anything else, and sent me on my way (and with a bogus lecture about how I need to be using higher octane fuel I might add). When I brought my car in this past Saturday, the first service agent was again insistent it was just a fuel issue. I had to fight to get them to look at the 12v battery.

    I maintain they should have done a more comprehensive diagnostic back in Feb and if they checked the 12v battery (as the protocol suggests) they would have caught the battery issue then. I'd be paying the invoice with a smile if I didn't have to pay the tow truck to tow may car to the dealer again and pay for 5 days of a rental car out of pocket.
     
  13. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    12 volt diagnosis can be tricky when it first starts to fail. you can read many threads here on the subject.
     
  14. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    Yes, I understand your point of view.

    When you pay for service on a time and materials basis there is no guarantee with regards to the outcome. The dealer will say they exerted their best commercial efforts on your behalf.

    Good luck if you pursue this in small claims.
     
  15. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    No, but small claims court is a waste of your time. Go to work instead, and find a better mechanic.

    Oh, and use some of your time saved reading up on reasonable preventive maintenance. This forum is a GREAT resource. Get smart, then you will not have to fight to get even while behind the eight ball.
     
    #15 SageBrush, Aug 20, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2014
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  16. KK6PD

    KK6PD _ . _ . / _ _ . _

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    Driving the transition from 5N to 134E 5 days a week, I thank you for not breaking down when I was there!! It's a nasty transition, I hit it about 1:05P, the traffic is usually light to medium! Glad you made that OK!
    The fact you got 9 years from that old battery amazes me!
    What dealer did you take it to?
    When I have a problem, or just maintenance I go in prepared! You did good by checking in here!
    Welcome back, I hope you get many more miles out of the Prius! ;)
     
  17. tarawow

    tarawow Junior Member

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    I hear you guys regarding small claims. Will prob only pursue this further legally if something else happens, as I'd have a pretty well-substantiated case for negligence at that point. But am truly hoping it doesn't come to that. Just thankful I didn't have my 2 week old in the car when it broke down. Mostly it was their hostile attitude from the get go that really has me riled (the first service guy I spoke with on Saturday accused me of lying about the gas gauge, then posited that the only alternative was that the gas must have been stolen from the car as it was being towed - only later did a different service person acknowledge there was more than half a tank of gas in the car).

    Managed to just pay for the cost of the battery which I feel is fair, as I would have happily paid for the battery + labor without issue back in Feb if they had caught it then. And I also hear you regarding maintenance. I thought I had been pretty good about the maintenance, but somehow testing the small battery fell off my radar. And after the big battery got replaced in Feb, life got in the way, so the self-maintenance went by the wayside. But am properly motivated and back on it now.

    Will also be going to a different dealer from now on. The drama was all with Marina del Rey Toyota. Will be trying North Hollywood next time.
     
    #17 tarawow, Aug 20, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2014
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  18. edthefox5

    edthefox5 Senior Member

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    Always amazes me how so many dealers cannot test the 12 volt battery. Takes 30 seconds from the comfort of the front seat.
    I highly suggest you become familiar with this. Look at this Youtube:

    Dash INFO service information question | PriusChat

    As I mentioned in that thread we always want to see the second button push that puts a load on the battery and tells the true capacity of the 12 volt battery. The other deciding factor is if any time in its life if it ever required a jump start. That usually means premature death for that little AGM 12 volt battery. It would not be surprising that the dealer killed the 12 volt themselves while replacing the Hybrid battery by leaving the doors open all day while working on replacing that and had to jump start it themselves.

    Here's the bad news:

    P3190 is also reported sometimes with engine throttle body issues. Its mentioned prominently in that pdf you just read about P3190.
    Hundreds of posts about this here on the forum.

    Mainly the throttle body needs a good cleaning. This is a standard maintenance issue on many modern cars. Modern cars there is no mechanical linkage from your foot pedal to the throttle body like back in carburetor days. Prius throttle body butterfly is actuated by a little motor instead controlled by a computer.
    The problem there is if the butterfly gets gunked up the little motor may not be able to power through it. Where if you had linkage you would be alerted by a bad feeling pedal response and then report to your mechanic the gas pedal is messed up. He would know exactly what that means. You have no pedal response feedback with a Prius making you unaware of the "gunkiness" of the TB. Only a P3130 nag of poor engine performance. The dealer should have checked the TB first thing.

    The gunkiness will prevent the throttle body from opening properly and will exhibit poor engine performance and eventually engine shutdown.

    Very bad side note is if not maintained the butterfly eventually gets corroded and the throttle body will require replacement as that little motor will not be able to open it easily. Seen that alot here. This is not a Prius issue but a modern car issue. Thats after the car gets towed in. At the Toyota dealer that's a $2000 day for a new TB. A simple thorough cleaning will prevent this. You'll be back at this knucklehead dealer asking him why they didn't check that also even though the P3190 mentions that. There are hundreds of posts on this forum about throttle body cleaning.

    Good Luck.
     
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  19. The Electric Me

    The Electric Me Go Speed Go!

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    I think you were lucky to get your Hybrid Battery replaced under warranty 1/2 a year ago.

    IF....big IF......

    But if the majority of your regular maintenance has been done at an independent shop?

    Then I think it was lucky and nice to get Marina del Rey Toyota to swallow the labor charges on the 12 volt replacement.

    Some owner responsibility is called for.

    9 years is a long time for any 12 volt battery, and the OP wasn't even sure if it had or hadn't been replaced in 09/10.

    As Ed points out above, it is possible you have additional issues.

    The Throttle Body could explain the unclean acceleration mentioned in the original post.

    I would switch dealerships, as it seems you have little trust in the one you are using now.

    And I would strive to have one entity handle the majority of the maintenance.

    Yes, "maybe" Marina del Rey should of caught the 12 volt battery issue 6 months ago. But with either a 4 year old 12 volt, or more amazingly a 9 year old one, especially if maintenance is being handled primarily through an independent Shop?
     
  20. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Forget the battery install labor, the dealership did not charge the diagnostic fee. I presume OP argued that the weak 12V should have been identified back when the traction battery was replaced. <<shrug>>

    A reasonable argument, although not one that would win in court. Since she is not what the dealership would call a 'good' customer, they dropped charges to get rid of the nuisance.

    It worked this time, but as I said earlier the simpler and more productive approach in the future is to be an informed car owner. E.g., if she had spent 10 minutes learning how to replace the battery herself she could have saved all the time and hassle she spent getting the charge dropped, AND she would be wiser for the future.

    None of us can be experts in everything, but a little effort invested in knowing and doing basic stuff goes a long way towards not living as a victim or a sucker and hoping that a court or a lawyer will resolve problems.
     
    #20 SageBrush, Aug 21, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2014