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FIRE! no start P3006 - P3016 - P3030 - parts & install ECU + Wire Harness to Traction Batt

Discussion in 'Generation 1 Prius Discussion' started by lovemy02prius, Sep 1, 2014.

  1. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    I have two more comments to make, and then I take my big nose elsewhere ;)
    1. A new battery that lasts 5 years will cost $1.25 a day
    2. Patrick, Bob and Chap are engineers with years and oodles of experience in electronics, high voltage stuff, and the Prius. Their advice is golden, but 99.9% of Prius owners cannot do what they do, even with handholding.

     
  2. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    What's wrong with the general one on page 10 and the specific one on page 20 of the 40G document you've obtained?

    That's good to know ... occasionally we see posts from people who seem to have pulled out their hybrid battery without knowing the safety protocols. Of course the only posts we see are from the ones who can still post.

    If you know anybody with a 12 V battery charger that can be set to a charge current below the limit shown on your battery, and especially if it has a desulfate feature, it won't hurt to take your old 12V battery and let it sit on that while you work on other things. Maybe you'll have to replace it anyway, but no need to solve every possible problem at once.

    -Chap
     
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  3. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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  4. lovemy02prius

    lovemy02prius Member

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    chap thanks! i see the diagrams!!!!! cool! yes we follow protocol, safety first.
    Brian is not a prius owner he's a mechanic and machinist so give him a little more credit then an average consumer…
    he can follow direction very well...
     
  5. lovemy02prius

    lovemy02prius Member

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    i added about 6 pics onto the photo bucket link..did you check the one where you can see some corrosion around the bus lines i believe you'd call it..
     
  6. lovemy02prius

    lovemy02prius Member

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    oh and he's not my boyfriend either..jejeje (and I'm not an average female)
     
  7. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    I don't see very much sign of other damage. Corrosion junk below all the terminals would be worth cleaning up with the busbars off.

    I take it the busbars haven't been removed yet (or at least hadn't when the photos were taken.) High-voltage dangers are present until the busbars are removed from at least one side. (Of course that means you face high-voltage dangers in the very process of taking them off, and you should not rush to do that before you have your hands and tools protected. But once they are off, the hazards are reduced.)

    I should point out that as long as the busbars are still connected, that crispy connector and the ECU itself are still harboring high voltage, biding their time, looking quiet and innocent.

    -Chap
     
  8. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    In engineering, we almost always have to pick two:
    1. GOOD
    2. FAST
    3. CHEAP
    I agree that the 12V battery can wait. If it can hold between 11.9-12.85V for a couple of hours, you'll be able to test. If it falls below 11.9V after 24 hours off of the charger, it is just a heart-break not likely to support reliable testing. Throw it on the charger and if it starts venting, take it off the charger, throw a shroud over it, and look for a 'beater battery' for testing. But if it holds +12V after 24 hours off the charger, it might work for testing . . . but winter will kill it for sure.

    Some of us (Ok, me) have peeled the "DANGER DO NOT REMOVE" label off the top to access the electrolyte filling holes and added enough water (distilled preferred) to the top of the plates. Then put the caps back on, put it on a charger, and run another year before it finally died hard. WARNING: reverse the terminals when installing the battery and the car is toast!

    Eric in Madison WI may be able to offer a drop-in replacement traction battery but he may be getting ready for a Prius meeting in Mass. When I decided to upgrade my traction battery to NHW20 modules, I bought a complete unit because I knew the builder, Rex Taylor, had a clue about how to do it right and I trust Eric too. I also pay people to roof the house, dig-up repair the sewer line, and I've changed my last clutch (I HOPE!)

    I typically own my cars 'until the wheels fall off' by picking up the pieces that break and kludging a repair. But you may need to weigh the cost, time, money, and reliability, of keeping this car running versus looking for a used, 2004-09 Prius. The improved space, performance, and utility of any 2004-09 will be a significant improvement over the 2001-03. . . . and it is big enough to camp-out in. <GRINS>

    My thinking is the traction battery might be kludged with a replacement wiring harness . . . assuming it is just the buss bar and not the harness that connects the ECU to the vehicle. As Chapman points out: take the cover off (may have been part of the original short event); with one hand in pocket, use the other to removed the buss bar from one side; then use both hands to remove and clean up the damaged area. Install the replacement buss bars; the cover and; put it in the car long enough with a charged 12V battery to see if starts.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #30 bwilson4web, Sep 2, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2014
  9. lovemy02prius

    lovemy02prius Member

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    GM Guys,

    I'm reading all the later post and catching up… will respond quickly now that I'm here..in the meantime

    Checking my options comparing:

    Nickel plated bus bars kit
    Grrrr I can't find the individual nickel plated bus bars on line so far! Anyone have a source or link???

    Best Rebuilt Battery Pack options
    Dorman (not dormemus - typo)
    cons: $1500 + 1k core charge
    use Gen 2 Cells with no plans of upgrading to Gen 3 Cells in sight.
    pros: They use the nickel plated bus bars
    3 yr warranty

    Having your cake and eating it too
    Question: Any affordable and trusted sources out there sell a rebuilt w the Gen 3 Cells and a also nickel plated bus bar element???



    msc:
    Yes as you said there are only 2 model # ECU's for Gen 1: 89890-47030 and 89890-47060

    Here's the safety instructional vid for removal & installing the hv hybrid battery pack
    In case someone reading this thread in the future needs it:

    anything crucial or special about details such as bolts etc

     
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  10. lovemy02prius

    lovemy02prius Member

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    Hi Bob, I just read your message, thank you! Are you saying regardless that the winter will kill it?? (see underlined) because last winter my beautiful city became Baby Antarctica,, I can't afford to get stuck in that…

    Bob: I agree that the 12V battery can wait. If it can hold between 11.9-12.85V for a couple of hours, you'll be able to test. If it falls below 11.9V after 24 hours off of the charger, it is just a heart-break not likely to support reliable testing. Throw it on the charger and if it starts venting, take it off the charger, throw a shroud over it, and look for a 'beater battery' for testing. But if it holds +12V after 24 hours off the charger, it might work for testing . . . but winter will kill it for sure.
    M: How do i know beyond a shadow of a doubt that this battery is good enough to get through??? Im on a tight budget (just bought a house cash) so If i can avoid purchasing a new one I will..



    Bob: Eric in Madison WI may be able to offer a drop-in replacement traction battery but he may be getting ready for a Prius meeting in Mass. When I decided to upgrade my traction battery to NHW20 modules, I bought a complete unit because I knew the builder, Rex Taylor, had a clue about how to do it right and I trust Eric too.
    M: Do you have a purchase link for the drop in 12V Battery replacement? How much are they ruffly, if i buy one i will get the upgraded NHW20


    Bob: My thinking is the traction battery might be kludged with a replacement wiring harness . . .
    M: So your saying that if my Traction Battery test ok it may work with the replacement harness?
    Kludged definition: while inelegant, inefficient, clumsy, or patched together, succeeds in solving a specific problem or performing a task

    Bob: assuming it is just the buss bar and not the harness that connects the ECU to the vehicle.
    M: hu? what are you referring to here? cleaning and then testing?? (see underlined)
    The Harness that connects the ECU (that you refer to) is the same one I will replace due to the damage (see link to pic aboveP
    or is am i missing something here? is this a reference to another harness??

    Bob: As Chapman points out: take the cover off (M: to the hv traction battery) (may have been part of the original short event); with one hand in pocket, use the other to removed the buss bar from one side; then use both hands to remove and clean up the damaged area. Install the replacement buss bars; the cover and; put it in the car long enough with a charged 12V battery to see if starts.
    M: Got it

    Thanks!!!
     
  11. lovemy02prius

    lovemy02prius Member

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    Hey ChapmanF,
    your right the bus bar has not been removed. Nothing has been touched removed from the HV Battery as of yet.

    a good non-residue-leaving solvent for cleaning up sooty paths; Bob: I might try isopropyl alcohol. Anyone else want to chime in??

    Also I forgot to mention,...thanks for all your input BritPrius!! You mentioned testing for Voltage:
    What is the prime voltage and resistance levels for my Gen 1 Cells (is this the same for Gen 2 & Gen 3 ?
    What else should I be testing voltage for and what should it be at exactly????

    Thanks!!
    Michelle
     
  12. ericbecky

    ericbecky Hybrid Battery Hero

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    Wow! This thread is quite an interesting story.
    Thanks for uploading the pics. That is the crispiest connector I have seen.

    You've already gotten some good advice and direction from other posters, so you are on the right track.

    Looks like you are considering digging in to the pack itself as opposed to a replacement.
    Since your labor is free, and you can go back into in as many times as needed, and you sound up for the challenge, this may be a good option for you.

    I would not use the existing bussbar since the cost of a replacement is under a couple hundred bucks. The time spent cleaning it never seemed worth it to me at that price.

    You may find your modules are fine.
    Each module should be around 7.2v

    Would be nice to pinpoint why the original fire happened. Hate for you to do this work, install it and have it happen again.
    Look for any pinching/abrasion. Perhaps a wire kept chafing against a sharp area and took a while before it finally wore through. Be especially careful when replacing the cover to not pinch any wires.
     
  13. lovemy02prius

    lovemy02prius Member

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    thank you, something to consider!
     
  14. lovemy02prius

    lovemy02prius Member

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    Hey there, ! any idea where i can buy a nickel plated bus bar??? or if not how about a regular one from an affordable reliable source?
    Also how do i get a list of potential causes for this fire/issue? Could it be the ECU itself threw a bad signal or is it more then likely relate to the pinched wired everyones mentioning? what a poor design to pinch wires..any way to upgrade it or avoid it when reinstalling??
    Thanks
    Michy
     
  15. ericbecky

    ericbecky Hybrid Battery Hero

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    Don't worry about the nickel plated bussbar for now. You just need to get it running and not be distracted by shiny things for the moment.
    Just go down to Toyota dealer and buy one and you can have it in hand by tomorrow morning.
    Toyota Part Number 82165-47030. They call it wire frame #2.

    For now just use your visual senses to look for fire cause.

    I wouldn't think it was the ECU I have not heard of an ECU failing in this way.
    Just go slow and pay attention to what you are doing while putting it together. Turn off the cell phone and keep focused on the task at hand. You are dealing with high voltage and a very expensive part of you car!

    You bought a different (used) ecu already, right?
     
  16. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    My fault for mentioning the plated busbar. As far as I know, you get those if you buy a Dorman rebuilt battery, otherwise you don't. Would it be cool if they sold just that part for do-it-yourselfers? Sure, but outside my own wishful thinking I've never seen any hint that they do.

    You can buy your own perfectly-good-brand-new-Toyota-but-not-nickel "wire frame #2" using the part # from Eric, or you can check at the same dealer for the whole replacement parts kit 04003-35147. If they can order that and have it in your hands just as fast, I'd go with the kit - it's got a lot more of the parts you would replace if you had them. It even includes new nuts for all the module terminals, as the old ones are probably funky.

    The sense I get from the picture is that the center of the fire really was pretty much right at that connector. When you look over the whole battery from angles I can't see in the pic, is that still what it looks like to you?

    I don't think it is likely that anything would normally be pinched there - the connector isn't up near where the cover goes or anything, it's a pretty sheltered location. The wires are skinny, corrosive leaked electrolyte may be in the neighborhood, and eventually a wire may have snapped at a terminal. The battery was rebuilt once with the ECU reused (and we don't know about the busbar/wire assembly), so the connector may have been handled roughly then, it was a hot day and some salty sweat got in, who knows? Or some beetle that was more conductive than lucky crawled into the ECU. Whatever it was, once any failure at that location caused any arc or overheating that damaged the insulation nearby, it was twenty skinny wires with 300 volts of potential so the game was on.

    But equally whatever it was, once you have a new wire assembly and a (replaced, checked-for-good-condition) ECU, you will have pretty much replaced the characters in that story. As long as you are careful about reassembly (don't misroute anything that could rub on/chafe against the wires, etc.) I wouldn't expect a recurrence. They did build thousands of these that didn't burn up.

    I once had a Ford Bronco II with a shop manual that gave very specific instructions about how to route the plastic tube from the clutch to its master cylinder. They were in all capitals and boldface. It clearly said "route it this way" but didn't say why, and I had noticed that while reading the manual, and I did it that way because it said so, and I never thought very much about why it said so, or what would happen if you didn't.

    Then there was this one time I paid a transmission shop to change a release bearing for me, because I had other things to do and that wasn't as much fun any more, and when they were done I got about half a mile down the street before the clutch tube (which they hadn't routed the way the manual said!) slipped down onto the exhaust pipe, melted, a great stinky cloud of smoking clutch fluid went up, and I drove back to their shop in whatever gear I was in at the time. :/

    None of that has anything to do with your battery, besides the basic ideas of paying attention to where stuff is supposed to be routed, what might happen if it isn't, and figuring out why manuals insist on certain things.

    -Chap
     
  17. lovemy02prius

    lovemy02prius Member

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    Lol ok, I'll focus on practical and not the lovely shiny nickel plated bus bar that i dreamt of last night that shielded my very expensive battery from corrosion due to cheap materials and leaky cells..jejeje

    I get the same vibe when i look at everything…all the action fireworks were at the plug in site..

    I have not bought any parts yet. I talk to toyota and they said regarding Bus Bar - 1 part for the L side and 2 parts for Right side. (anyone want to chime in on that?) it was about

    The sense I get from the picture is that the center of the fire really was pretty much right at that connector. When you look over the whole battery from angles I can't see in the pic, is that still what it looks like to you?

    Toyota/chris says:

    ecu modules compatible
    part # 89661 4054
    Model Numbers: 89890-47060 $1200
    89890-47030 $1300

    wire harness 89.92
    g383047040
    1 day

    bus bars
    $140.47 L side part #821654730
    $67 total ($33.59 each R side (x2) #8267047070)
    no warranty

    $199.27 12v battery 2880021050 (Toyota True Start, warranty 84 months)
    wow never paid $200 for a 12v battery! Hey i rather drop my hard earned cash on the upgraded one mentioned earlier by Bob Wilson (the guy with a sense of humor) (more shiny toys to play with just teasing!) i would like to have the link or contact for that or can i message Eric in madison? ps bob yea i like the idea of a newer prius and camping out in one too, but the fact is I can't afford to do that unless i fix this one and sell it and add some money onto that lot. I think they call it house broke! : 0



    Bob: Eric in Madison WI may be able to offer a drop-in replacement traction battery but he may be getting ready for a Prius meeting in Mass. When I decided to upgrade my traction battery to NHW20 modules, I bought a complete unit because I knew the builder, Rex Taylor, had a clue about how to do it right and I trust Eric too.

    acebook
     
  18. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Let me share the reason behind nickel plating. Our NHW11 battery modules were the first ones made. Unfortunately, they have higher internal resistances than the later ones and weaker terminal seals. In a lot of high stress driving, +65 mph and mountains and heat, the modules get warm and can leak a little bit of the KOH electrolyte around the "O" ring.

    KOH is the 'evil twin' of acid and 'eats' yellow metal like copper and aluminum. It is really nasty stuff since it is also used as a drain cleaner. If you touch it, it feels 'slippery' because it has just converted a small layer of skin oil into soap!

    Nickel is one of the metals KOH does not instantly eat so plating the copper buss bar parts provides a barrier. But we are typically talking about years of service versus 'over night.' When you take off the old buss bars, look for green/white copper corrosion, the tell of past leaks. The dark, rubber cement patches on each end are there to 'sop up' any KOH that lead-footed, North American drivers overheat their batteries and blow-out a little KOH.

    On rebuilding, we're going to suggest throughly cleaning the terminals. A recent technique Robert M. pioneered is using acetone (wished I thought of that!) This also removes a path for a ground leak that could induce another fault code. A good cleaning and careful assembly means ordinary copper buss bars will work for years . . . or until you can trade it in for 2004-09 or 2010-2014 model Prius. <GRINS>

    Bob Wilson