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Plug-In Hybrids vs. FCV

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by skayaks, Oct 21, 2014.

  1. skayaks

    skayaks Active Member

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    Interesting piece at Green Car Reports:
    "A decently electrified plug-in hybrid or range-extended electric car is already both long-range and fast-fueling, with no infrastructure issues at all. Off the lot, today. And far less expensive than any fuel-cell vehicle will be in the next 5 to 10 years."

    Plug-In Hybrids Are The Best Competitors To Fuel-Cell Vehicles: Here's Why
     
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  2. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

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    quote...

    "Assuming a category of plug-in hybrids that basically meets most folks' daily commute--not an 11-mile Prius, maybe 19-mile Fords, but certainly a 38-mile Volt or a 72-mile BMW i3 REx, they're already driving in zero-emission mode for 70 to 80 percent of the time--based on Department of Transportation data and what's been said publicly by carmakers themselves."

    Too much "assuming EV"!!
    - Prius PHV does not meet most folks' daily commute?
    - 70-80 percent of the time a threshold for what?
    - Not paying attention to CS mode consumption??

    A missed opportunity to beat up the FCVs, just by ignoring FE of the ICE delivery...and giving to much for ZE modes.
     
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  3. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    The Mitsubishi Outland PHEV have the specs right. 25-35 mile EV range, chademo fast charge facility and a 2.0 petrol engine for fast fill ups as and when required. It is also very competitively priced.

    If Toyota increase the range on their PIP to similar and lower the ridiculous cost of the PIP, then they'll have a winner.

    Makes me chuckle when people say "hydrogen is the future" and that BEVs and plug ins are horrid and polluting because they have a nasty battery in them, without realising their beloved fuel cell car has one in it too. Not to mention LOTS of platinum and other precious metals.

    On balance I think plug in cars with a realistic 30 mile range with fast charging is the way to go. The best of both worlds until battery costs come down.
     
    #3 GrumpyCabbie, Oct 22, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2014
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  4. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    well it IS the future .... and always will be.
    .
     
  5. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    State of Calfornia mandates zero emission vehicles, EV and FCV.
    Chelsea Sexton saying "who needs FCV when we already got PHEV?"...I don't hear CARB saying, Oh, why didn't we think of that?

    From what I can see (and Toyota sees it too) lots of very interesting new technology coming out the H2 FCV work. FCV is not competing against anything right now as far as consumer auto purchase option. Public/private R&D funding is probably better going to longer term technology demonstration, rather than just expanding charging stations for EV all over the place.
     
  6. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    FCEV is competing against BEV for subsidies though. In terms of reducing or displacing emissions from metropolitan areas, one FCEV car is going to do as much as one BEV car. Yet the FCEV one will get more ZEV credits. Since many of the automakers are only offering such cars for these credits, giving more credits to FCEV means the company needs to put less zero emission cars on the road to meat the quota.

    It is prudent to invest in other technologies, and some of the federal funds are going into into projects that could make fuel cells and hydrogen production more viable. California spending millions, with some token amounts from the car makers, on hydrogen refueling stations doesn't do much to help fuel cell development. In fact, it could hinder the development of methanol fuel cells by locking the field into compressed hydrogen systems. PHEV have an advantage over FCEV and BEV because of the lock made by the abundance of gasoline stations.
     
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  7. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Remember Sexton is part of a pac for plug-ins. CARB is a non-elected government entity that is part of the California Fuel Cell partnership, the PAC for fuel cells. I would not expect CARB to agree with Sexton, unless it is forced to remove its conflict of interest. The DOE seems to agree with Sexton, but they don't have the inherent conflict of interest CARB does.

    Now for voters in California can pressure CARB by pressuring the governor, who is elected.

    Nichols the head of CARB has gotten a tax on California motorist to subsidize fuel cell commercialization by $220M for fueling infrastructure, plus $5000/vehicle plus HOV stickers, plus 9 zev credits for fast refueling that tax payers may or may not build. For phev's the hov stickers are running out, and likely will not exist when competing with fuel cell vehicles. The state is giving $1500/vehicle and 0 zev credits as well as requiring a long warranty for batteries (not needed for fuel cells). Sexton can naturally argue that phevs like the volt and i3 travel most of their miles electrically, can be refueled with renewables (fcv owners have to take whatever the station has), and can be refueled more conveniently. Even in charge sustain mode (ice on) these EVER PHEVs have very low tail pipe emissions versus the current California fleet. I find it hard to believe the state is getting much from their $220M + other incentives other than a bigger CARB organization. CARB has also successfully lobbied the DOE for greater funds for fcv. DOE has spent about $3B so far. GM $2.5B. Toyota has not said how much, but its a 20 year project and likely well over $1B.
     
  8. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    Yes, in other words, do we really need a CA ZEV mandate anymore?
    The orig idea was to solve CA smog problems, but modern ICE cars like Prius are now PDCT ZEV (pretty darn close to).
    I don't have CARB's smog calculcations, but there *could* be an valid argument that fugitive emissions upstream from clean cars like Prii still suggest ZEV is needed to solve the smog problems.

    "Could" still be a valid ZEV-argument in CA, but I'd be a skeptic on it. But if we accept there is a valid ZEV argument in CA, then OK we got EV and FCV.
     
  9. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    CARB has really jumped the shark here, they haven't done further study. I would bet that 2 prii reduce tail pipe emissions more in LA than 1 fcv, and its a lot easier to sell to prius than 1 fcv. We have the problem that when these vehicles get old they pollute more, but this could easily be handled by removing them if they were over a number using current smog testing inspections. Things may have been different 20 years ago.
     
  10. F8L

    F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

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    Actually I agree with their assessment. The PIP doesn't meet most people's commute needs in ZE mode which then makes it inferior to other longer range PHEVs according to those guidelines. It's not a bad vehicle at all but when you can drive car A for 20-40 miles using no gasoline but the PIP uses .5ga the choice is obvious. No gasoline is better than some gasoline. Still, the PIP is better than 99% of the rest of the vehicles out there in trms of reduced emissions and fuel consumption. :)
     
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  11. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    The prius phv definitely does not meet a california daily commute that averages 29 miles. Its not even close. 70%-80% seems high, even for california in the volt it is 63% nationally, but california likely because of heavier traffic and moderate temperatures is higher. Maybe it sneaks up to 70%. The ice doesn't turn on for over 80% of trips, but the ones it does turn on for are longer. The i3 should certainly be a higher percentage of electric.

    I do agree with you that a gen II prius phv is likely better for california air than the fuel cell vehicles, and the cost is not nearly as high.

    mpge for the volt is higher and ghg produced in california lower than the clarity, tucson, and f-class fcv given national driving statics. Those things take ice delivery into account. Toyota has not rated their fcv yet, well because it isn't done, but I doubt it will be much higher than the clarity, or toyota would have press released it. FCV only look good when you ignore the fueling requirements and costs.

    The question then is? Should US and California tax payers be spending over $20,000 per fuel cell car when it doesn't seem to do much better to displace gas usage, tail pipe emissions or ghg than a erev phev? CARB says yes its worth it, they need it because some people will prefer hydrogen stations, but again carb is a member of the fuel cell lobby.
     
    #11 austingreen, Oct 22, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2014
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  12. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    On the way home I followed THIS for several miles. It turned into Toyota's corporate Orange County headquarters. Every time the driver gunned it off the line I could distinctly see water vapor coming from the tailpipe - fwiw. uploadfromtaptalk1414094913085.jpg

    It looked rather plain ... nothing like that god awful thing you see at the various car shows
     
    #12 hill, Oct 23, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2014
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  13. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    It definitely has hints of Prius about it. I wonder if it's a saloon/sedan version of the Prius for you guys.
     
  14. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    hill did it kind of look like this? That is the lexus hs. The wheels are the same. Who knows if it was a test mule. Maybe the toyota sai, both are the same platform as the mirai or whatever thay call the toyota fcv.
    [​IMG]
     
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  15. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    100 MPGe EV economy is no greener than 50 MPG on gas.

    In my view, PHEV with less than 100 MPGe is a waste of time (literally charging time).

    Some gas is better than long refuel with coal electricity and 37 MPG thereafter.

    FCV has potential to be cleaner than HEVs and PHEVs. Keep an open mind.
     
  16. -Rozi-

    -Rozi- Member

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    Imagine the humidity when all cars go FCV... ;)

    My long term bets are: BEV for personal transportation, FCV for trucks, buses and other heavy duty vehicles.
     
  17. cycledrum

    cycledrum PSOCSOASP

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    Hey man (Toyota), just work (hard) on getting more new people into your best regular hybrids (Prius, Camry)

    I'm tellin' ya, I have a grind of a 14 mile one way commute in heavy freeway traffic.

    I'm seeing 60 something on the gage every day now. That's almost twice what any other conventional its size can get.

    Just keep your (Toyota) eye on the ball and make the Prius more mainstream, more inviting inside, make it drive very well and reduce the cost for what you get.

    The BEVs, PHEVs, FCVs are mostly for more hardcore types and have big, expensive batteries and fuel cell stacks.

    btw, the 2015 Camry / hybrids are in and look like a nice upgrade over the '12 to 14.5s.
     
  18. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    That's the test mule using the HS250h's body (Toyota SAI in Japan).

    I've always wondered about that (as well as fog or road icing if they're dripping water on the roads). I guess it depends on how much water vapour they emit.
     
    #18 Tideland Prius, Oct 24, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 26, 2014
  19. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    well that is your view and not the POV of the DOE or CARB or most environmental organizations.

    All cars pollute. PHEVs are some of the lowest polluting cars.

    Can you point to one coal facility built to refuel phevs? Just one? I can point you to how many have closed in the last 5 years.

    The only way you can get a fcv to be cleaner than a BEV is funny accounting.
    You need to pretend that all renewable electricity built for the fcv only goes to the fcv, and none of the renewable energy built for bevs actually makes it the bev.

    FCV can be part of the future if they get there costs down or if the government gives them much higher subsidies than plug-ins. At least they substitute away from oil sands and to more plentiful natural gas and electricity in the US, and likely coal in europe and asia.


    In Japan we have that case where the government will spend approximately $40,000 for each new fcv. Let them run the test, and see if they can get the costs down. But if they do, if your measure is ghg, and you account for it honestly, that fcv will end up generating more than long range phevs and bevs.
     
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  20. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    lol I agree.

    I did ask the question of FCV humidity a while back as like you if in 30 years all cars are pumping out water vapour it could add up. Would cities have moisture on the walls of buildings, dripping down in a Blade Runner fashion. Would cities just have a big cloud hanging above them in future instead of smog? I also wondered what it would be like in winter; would there be more ice on the road from the moisture from the FCVs.

    Those in the know say that it just won't happen or make a difference as the amounts are so small. If I recall, they said the same thing about lead in petrol and look what happened there. Would hot dry places like LA not mind the extra moisture in the air? What about somewhere cold and damp like London or Dublin?