Volt 2.0: Ruess "It will leap-frog... the competition"

Extinguishing FUD and misrepresentation is a very laudable goal. Your videos are fantastic.
Engaging in debate over public policy is democracy in action. Glad to have you.

Pissing on the other person's car is a waste of time at best.
By the way, I spent some time on that volt website too back in the day. I was mostly tolerated when I posted factual data on the Prius, but became a 'troll' when I corrected misrepresentations of the Volt, and became reviled when I got angry and told them they were idiots. LOL

Waste of my time, really. The idiots refused to listen and the non-idiots already knew the score, although they tended to keep a low profile.

 

I thoroughly enjoy time spent with Volt owners IN PERSON. That's a dramatically different experience than online. We have a good time when the local club meets. But then again, the audience there includes many Leaf & Tesla owners... which means none of the "vastly superior" or "leaf frog" claims ever emerge... since we're all focusing on the big picture.

 

Only 1000 that is horrible. Really I hadn't read that. I have been reading about how toyota is making fuel cells mainstream. Like this
Google

Toyota plots ‘society-changing’ fuel-cell car for the masses - MarketWatch

They are going to change society. That doesn't sound like they are only selling 1000. They are selling to the masses.
The last numbers I saw from toyota were here
Toyota 2015 fuel-cell car gets ambitious price as eco-tech matures - SlashGear

Ok 11,000 in the US, it must be ready to sell a lot more in Japan and Europe. I mean Japan has a 3 million yen subsidy in some places and probably free fuel.

Do I think they will sell as well as the prius in the US? But it should be obvious that is ttremendous hype, if you are right and they only plan to sell 1000 a year. These are current articles, written mainly from Toyota PR. Yes I hold it against the toyota fcv, but I won't be harping on it years from now. Now what did gm say again that matches this hype? I don't remember them saying they would change society. I hope they are planning on more than 1000 in 2015. Do you have a link? I mean why even sell it, if it is going to bomb that badly.

Again I don't see much hype. Lots of interest in the plug-in market. If gm does a good gen II it will be rewarded with good growth from gen I and profitability. If it does a bad job, some other plug-in will take over. The biggest plug-in interest is the tesla model 3. I would say that is probably the big winner. The volt is different enough to sell along side it. The next gen leaf needs to improve big time if the model 3 is as good as the hype

The toyota fcv, I expect will be hyped for years to come.

 

I can appreciate the ironic nature of claiming to not see hype for the upcoming Volt while at the very same time feeding it for the upcoming FCV.

It won't distract from the reality of nothing being delivered for the masses though. Any automaker is welcome to *ALSO* offer speciality vehicles. But that's an above-and-below venture, not an only.

Back to the leap-frogging?

 

Well than can we at least agree that the toyota pr piece I linked from september 2, where toyota said that they were going to produce a fuel cell vehicle for the masses, may be a little more hyped than whatever you remember on the volt. I mean right here you say it isn't for the masses and tToyotasays it is. I really haven't heard anything like that recently from chevy. You may may on affinity sites, but its not in press releases or in the news. The volt was hyped before it was released, and a lot of the audience was internal to not cancel the project. I haven't seen anything really hyped lately, but a lot of negative anti-volt articles. I didn't see anything compared to the toyota fuel cell hype even then.

And you know I don't consider the volt a mass market car, but it certainly hits a much bigger demographic than the toyota fcv. I think you are using the lance armstrong defense for toyota. Lance in court said that it was obvious that he was lying, and the sponsor should not have believed him. I guess you can say the same for toyota here.

Ok. Sure that will be much more productive. So in context reuss said that the volt would leap frog the competition, at the same time he talked about a long range bev and a performance luxury plug in. I would take that to mean he expects the volt to leap frog the plug-in competition that is not long range or performance - leaf, prius phv, ford energi, i3, b class ed, and a bunch of compliance cars.

Will the gen II volt leap frog them? I think it has a good chance, but we won't know until it is released. After that I figure we can decide if it was puffery or real. It will be the first gen II so even if it does leap frog those models, those models may catch up in the next generation which is 2016 probably for the gen II leaf and next prius phv.

 

I am leaning to the puffery aspect. GM has been very consistant with their legacy, vagueness, and unsapportive approach to advertising the Volt. What would change with gen II? : a much improved Volt facing an increasingly crowded marketplace that demands a manufacturer clearly has their target market clearly defined. The gen II marketing and sales approach will be refined, learning from their mistakes with gen I. This refined approach will be seen as success with gen II sales taking off nad adding to the bottom line of corporate profits.

The above must happen, otherwise, its, like I said: puffery.

DBCassidy

 

There's nothing to decide. What is meant by "leaf frog" must be clearly defined prior to rollout. If that detailed criteria is met, then it succeeded. If not, it didn't.

The nonsense with rollout of the first was inexcusable. We saw the goal-posts being moved after the fact. Volt clearly wasn't achieving sales goals, so focus shifted over to performance instead. The reality that it was in no way sustainable without a large subsidy was pushed aside in favor of promoting EV miles.

There's nothing to debate anymore and spin falls on deaf ears. We want to know what "leaf frog" means.

 

Leap frog in hype but no substance in green advancement. Just bullet points for the bregging rights.

 

Really ? <<sigh>>
It means a GM mouthpiece is doing his/her job and hyping the car with meaningless hyperbole.

 

Leaf frog - sounds like a kids game.

DBCassidy

 

hehe! That's both a funny typo and ironically fitting. Gotta like the auto-spell feature on phones.

Anywho, we all remember how GM hyped the "range anxiety" angle. They even went as far as trade-marketing the phrase. Their purpose was to show the world how EREV was vastly superior to EV. It was Tesla who stirred the pot, but the target was Leaf. We were told over and over and over how valuable having a "range extender" would be.

As time progressed though, Leaf showed signs of consumer interest. The fear campaign was falling apart. That vital feature of Volt wasn't crushing the competition as hope. So, attention was refocused on a seemingly weaker foe: Prius PHV. But it turns out, that wasn't as easy as hoped. Despite the limited market availability and much lower tax-credit, it still held on.

I was surprised how much misleading effort the enthusiasts had to expend to save face for Volt. It's something they'll look back upon with regret... hence asking now what looking forward will bring. Instead, we are seeing the hype being encouraged again. That vague "leap frog" exclamation without any detail matches an all-to-familiar pattern.

 

I mostly agree. leapfrog in this context is mainly puffery. From the information chevy has put out the gen II won't have a charge depletion range as large as the leaf and i3, and won't have electrical efficiency of the i3, the 2 technical areas they could leap frog.

We are left with sales volume then, and after leading in US plug-ins in 2012 and 2013 the volt is behind the leaf refresh in 2014. In this context reuss can only mean that he expects the volt to substantially outsell other non-tesla plug-ins in 2016. I would say a 5000 unit advantage in the year might be considered a leap frog. Comparison could be the 2004 prius, which sold 24K in the transition year (equivalant to 2015) and 54K in the first full year (equiv 2016). Even if chevy does a great job I don't expect 54K in 2016, but I would consider a 35K US sales volume a "leapfrog" of the leaf and other competition as long as the best selling there is at least 5K less. Of course 2016 promises the gen II leaf and replacement prius phv, where these cars could if done well could leapfrog the volt in 2017 sales.

Why say leap frog instead of outsell? That one is easy, if you say outsell you have to give sales projections, and no body but tesla has done that well. Nissan probably blew theirs the most, and the over estimate hurt market value. Toyota, well they blew it big time, but it is such a small percentage of the business that the underestimate of the aqua (prius c) more than made up for it. GM didn't do as badly as toyota or nissan, but also exaggerated. The volt probably has added a little to market value though, as analysts were much more pessimistic than gm. GM's big blunders are the ignition switch and european operations.

 

Fortunately, we don't have to buy cars based on puffery. I say that because all the Prius commericals I have ever seen make me gag with the Toyota PR puffery. To me the issues with vehicles should be on engineering and company performance (or lack thereof). To date only Tesla's (lack of) commercials seem to be the best sales strategy. (Make it the car, not the PR department.)

 

Commercials and Press-Releases are very very different.

They are targeted at different people at different times for different purposes.

In this case, we are dealing with press releases.

 

Sales is the multiplication factor of a green car. You need the latter before the former to make great environmental impact.

Volt needs to be competitive in green cred, first. Then, make it affordable enough for multiplication.

 

Fair way to look at things, minus the subsidy.

The Volt is a ~ 37 MPG car that by fleet, consumes 1x petrol and 1.5x NG. Nothing great, but better than 97% of the other cars running around. My main criticism of the Volt all along has been the price. If it can be profitable at less than $25k without subsidy then GM will have done it's part.

 

Agree. Prius c under $20k is going more environmental benefit than Volt. However, the hype and government incentive bias are working against it.

It is good to have choices. The incentive should go toward viable mass marketable technology, based on measurable result (not the size of energy storage device). Will Volt 2.0 be clean and mass marketable? We'll see.

 

I think your goal needs to be more reasonable. The Prius plug in starts at over $30k with destination. The average new car price was $31k last year. Thirty grand was the initial price target of the Volt. The Volt needs to become more family friendly to became a large success. That is seat 5 comfortably with cargo space for trips and activities.

The Prius c is cheap for a hybrid, but it only works for singles, beginning families, or as a second car. It is a compact, or C class, car. Nothing wrong with that, it's what I drive, but that class isn't the big car seller for a company, or seen as a family car by the masses. The Cruze is the only exception that I know of that sells more than its mid-size stable mate.

The Prius sedan hits the $25k target. If the Volt can offer the same ability in hauling people and stuff for $30k, it will be a success. Product wise, the car is already making a profit. It is the R&D cost accounting that keeps from being called profitable. That is a fixed cost though, which is being chiseled down by each Voltec based car sold.

 

Volt is a compact, currently. Will it continue to be?

 

Prius c has 5 seats and a spare tire while Volt has 4 with no spare.

Volt would make a better second car.