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Plug-In Hybrids vs. FCV

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by skayaks, Oct 21, 2014.

  1. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

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    That has been discussed here before. ICE engines produce about 25%wt water already. Considering higher efficiency of the FCV system, water exhaust may not increase dramatically...
     
    Tideland Prius and bwilson4web like this.
  2. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    So if ICEs are 25%, what are FCV's?

    A small increase might not be a problem on the breezy coast in Portugal but it is here. In the middle of winter we get dew inside the car, on the inside of the windows, on the plastics of the dash, inside and outside of the displays. You can literally run your fingers along the top of the dash and it turns to water droplets like a misted up mirror in a hot bathroom. That's why French car electrics die, they just can't handle it.

    Perhaps FCV pollution would be so minor as not to affect the air but equally they said that about lead and diesels and look what happened there. Even an extra 5% or 10% would make a significant difference when it's 90% humidity.
     
  3. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

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    If ICE-only cars have an efficiency of 20% (Otto engines), and FCV have 60%, it's a matter of "balancing":
    25% times 5 vs 100% times 1.666 = 1.25 vs 1.66
    Not a dramatic increase, is it?
     
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  4. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    Hybrid is the core technology for Toyota. Their plugin hybrid, even FCV use it. The brain to blend two fuels optimally and components are shared.

    I had 45 miles on way commute. It is now 8.5 miles. I find moving closer work better than looking for ways to replace with fairy dust.

    Remember reduce, reuse, recycle. The order is very important and "replace" is not in there. :)

    CARB, I understand because they only care about tailpipe emission.

    EPA however, also takes account of emission from fuel production. DOE should as well.

    What are the other organization?

    Plugins are lowering emission compared to regular gas cars. Leaf is a clean as 55 MPG. Volt and C-Max as 45 MPG. PiP as 51 MPG. However, most of the credit goes to regular 50 MPG hybrids.

    Be careful with general statement like that. $20k Prius c is cleaner than $40k Volt plugin.

    2/3 of electricity in the grid are still from fossil fuels. Renewable share is increasing but plugins are very expensive way to lower overall emission. I own one of the cleanest abd practical one and I can't support PHEV less clean than a regular hybrid.
     
    #24 usbseawolf2000, Oct 24, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 26, 2014
  5. css28

    css28 Senior Member

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    Conventional wisdom has been that ICE's emit a gallon of water for every gallon of gasoline consumed.

    I think the water vapor concern is silly.
     
  6. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    For 64% of the population a Leaf is cleaner than the Prius (using 2012 grid data).
    For those us us generating/buying clean energy it gets even cleaner.

    Global Warming Emissions and Fuel-Cost Savings of Electric Cars (2012)
     
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  7. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    No concern for having to deal with temperatures well below freezing, eh?

    Build up of vapor from tailpipes, called black ice due to the source, is a very real issue here.
     
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  8. cycledrum

    cycledrum PSOCSOASP

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    I will try to get a parts and labor cost for the Li Ion battery. A year ago, they could not give me a price. if the replacement cost is 2x or so the NiMH, that would seem to make PHEV or FCEV much more difficult to sell. costs might come down in next 6 years + and technologies are new.

    If you can believe, I , the constant complainer about this car, have recently started looking ahead in commuter traffic to see the flow far ahead to up the MPGs. It works.
     
    #28 cycledrum, Oct 24, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2014
  9. F8L

    F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

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    You really have to base that comment on the region in which the PHEV is being charged. A blanket statement like that does not apply to all. Especially if the PHEV is running at 80% or higher EV ratio or on home solar. You know this. :)
     
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  10. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    2014 Leaf is indeed (not the 2011-2013 models) but without the same range, a spare tire or quick refuel time. FCV is supposed to overcome those while being even greener.

    If you buy/generate clean energy from a grid-tied system and claim it gets cleaner for you. Does it make dirtier for others? That's why it makes sense to use the weighted (per kWh) emission instead of cherry picking.
     
  11. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Refueling is a very real issue people seem to either dismiss or be unaware of.

    Fast to refuel should be obvious. The other is storage. The grid doesn't actually have any. That results in an efficiency penalty most fail to acknowledge. When the electricity is generated, it is sent out for immediate use... since there isn't any way of holding on to it. Hydrogen provides that means of capture, preventing waste in some circumstances.
     
  12. F8L

    F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

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    If you buy/generate clean energy from a grid-tied system and claim it gets cleaner for you. Does it make dirtier for others? [/QUOTE]

    It sure makes it nice for those people driving behind you that's for sure..... :p
     
  13. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    In the U.S. we are affluent, and we have lots of energy: coal, nukes, gas, oil, wind, solar, bio and "hot air".

    For us, energy policy is sort of political, adversarial, and advocacy-based. We can afford to make extra electricity and use it in EV cars if we want to, or we could go fossil fuel route for cars. So we have endless arguments about picking winners and losers, since we have the luxury to go differernt paths. Advocacy for EV in US is quite strong, with many groups pushing for that way.

    Some place like Japan without the energy resources, FCV potentially fills a more strategic role in the future. There are lots of ways to make H2 including solar, so could be important for them.
     
  14. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    For a full life cycle (including manufacturing and recycling), Prius c would be a clear winner. I agree, in CA, Volt is cleaner than Prius c for well-to-wheel emission -- which is partial view of the entire life cycle.

    Volt takes more energy to manufacture. It is heavier and need more materials. It takes more energy to operate. I don't care where the energy comes from but if you use it, you take it away from nature (less energy for plants or wind).

    Running on solar electricity is an expensive option. It is ineffective if you don't tie it to the gird. It should be considered as a "mod" and not "stock". That makes it a niche/enthusiast market.

    Energy efficiency is more important than switching fuel. Carbon footprint of the entire life cycle is the answer. This is why Prius interior plastic is made with plant-based bio-degradable material.

    Not to take anything away from Volt. It is a fine car that has better ride and handling and cleaner than regular gas cars. If you look at it from a wider angle, it is not an effective solution. Costs too much for too little gain with many side-effect introduced, especially with the emission level in current grid.

    Range anxiety is part range, part refuel speed. It is probably not a common knowledge but that's what FCV addresses, both.

    Some people view the grid as the storage because they sell their solar electricity during the day and charge their plugins at night from the grid.

    The thing is, they claim they are using solar electricity. Really? :cautious:

    Storing solar electricity in hydrogen at home and cutting tie to the grid is ideal, IMO. Charge it directly to plugin car and the excess to generate hydrogen. A hydrogen plugin vehicle would be ideal, if cost does not prohibit.
     
    #34 usbseawolf2000, Oct 24, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 26, 2014
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  15. F8L

    F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

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    I generally agree with your opinion but do we have any sources that show the Volt is less clean than the Prius c in a life cycle analysis. Well, the Volt would not be the best model for this because it obviously uses fuel and is MUCH less efficient than the c on ICE. You see where I'm going with this though.

    As for the plant based products in the interior. I sure hope they refine this idea but the interior rattles suck and was a bit part of why I ditched the PIP. Rattles in a $40k car is no bueno. lol
     
  16. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Excellent summary. Having driven Volt several times on a closed track, I can attest to the ride & handling. That view fails to consider the unfulfilled goals though. The "saving gas" campaign further illustrates how need hadn't been fully addressed. Fortunately, many of the enthusiasts have come to terms with that reality and are placing their bets on the next-gen offering. They had thought we were being unfair by forcing the big-picture perspective, not giving Volt a chance. They now realize the importance of that cost-reduction, how it brings about vital improvements. Look at what shedding weight delivers; using fewer materials for the build also provides an efficiency gain.

    With subsidies expiring within the next-gen production cycle and the necessity to seriously increase sales volume, being an effective solution cannot be emphasized enough.
     
  17. F8L

    F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

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    Does it really address the refilling speed issue? Can a hydrogen station refuel a large number of vehicles quickly like a gas station or are there issues with dispensing the hydrogen to a long line of vehicles?

    This must also be balanced with the consumer desire for a nicer vehicle. Efficiency is great but not everyone wants to ride in a Prius c quality car or even the PIP for that matter. Weight plays a big role in overall ride comfort. Otherwise I agree with your assessment. I just feel it needs to be balanced by consumer desires.

    The other aspect to consider is the used market. We always focus on brand new car pricing but used PHEVs and electrics are well within the price range of the average driver even before reduced fueling costs are considered. They will only get cheaper too.
     
    #37 F8L, Oct 24, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 26, 2014
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  18. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Hey now we are getting somewhere;) In many places like California solar is less expensive than grid power:) In many others it is not. Well over 30% of California plug-in drivers put in solar. In 10 years, I expect solar powered plug-ins to be mainstream, but they are niche today. That niche is much larger than the niche of people wanting fuel cell vehicles.

    We have had many people debunk how costly in terms of ghg the plug-in manufacturing is on plug-in cars. These typically relied on fairly poor CNW type assumptions about low useful life and low recycling of materials. Definitely a prius c should be lower than a volt which should be lower than a fuel cell vehicle in terms of ghg manufacturing per mile used.

    Again that plastic interior doesn't really reduce ghg/mile manufacturing cost. It does switch away from oil based plastics to plant based plastics. Yep reduces oil use in manufacturing.

    I think many americans, europeans, asians would disagree with you on the idea that every fuel is as good as every other. Using Oil sands or OPEC oil to produce gasoline, even if it is more efficient in some minds is less desirable than natural gas, wind, or solar.

    But it costs much less than a toyota fuel cell and costs have been coming down. Why would you pick a fuel cell over a phev?

    Now about that funny funky bad fcv math of yours. In california 30% of hydrogen for fuel cells is to come from renewable electricity, at least that is the plan. Now I don't expect fcv to leave california in the US, but if they do I would think the requirements would be to use even more than 30% electricity. Say your fuel cell vehicle gets 60 miles /kg hydrogen and it takes 70 kwh of electricity to produce 1 kg of liquid hydrogen. Not counting the ghg to build the equipment, truck the liquid hydrogen, etc we need 1 kg of electric generated hydrogen for every (60miles/30%)= 200 miles. That means for the electrically generated hydrogen only we need 70kwh/200 miles or 0.35kwh/mile, or about the amount of electricity to run a 96 mpge plug-in but we haven't counted at all the 70% of the hydrogen generated from natural gas. The only way you can say that this energy is for the fcv produces less ghg than a hybrid is to count this electricity as much cleaner than the national grid and even much cleaner than the california grid . Use the same terms for plug-ins and fcv and the long range plug-in or bev will produce less ghg.
     
  19. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Quantity what "nicer" actually means. With Prius, we know Toyota has targeted the Corolla/Camry buyers.

    That's why the WHO question keeps getting asked. Knowing audience is extremely important.
     
  20. F8L

    F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

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    Nicer is fairly universal. We all know the quality of materials used and the ride/handling is better in the Volt and CMax than in the Prius family. Those come at a cost though. Many folks choose those other vehicles over the Prius family because of the "nicer" factor. I'm not saying they are a better idea than the Prius. I'm just saying that there needs to be different levels of trim for different tastes and levels of affluence. The Prius trim level works for a lot of people. We shouldn't try to reduce all trim levels to the bare necessity just in the name of efficiency. Not if we plan on capturing larger market segments.
     
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