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Plug-In Hybrids vs. FCV

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by skayaks, Oct 21, 2014.

  1. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    OK who is going to buy the toyota fcv? This is a thread about fcv versus phevs. Why would even a loyal toyota buyer choose a 4 seat fcv over a prius phv, Leus ct200h, or camry hybrid? That prius phv as sexton said is going to be much more convent to refuel. there is no range anxiety because gas stations unlike hydrogen stations are everywhere, you don't have to drive all the way a few neighborhoods in california to find them.

    THe other parst of the zev mandate is tailpipe emissions and substituting away from oil. The prius phv has much lower tailpipe emissions than cars did when the mandate was written, but CARB may have a point that it should be even lower. A simple solution is a slightly larger battery in the car, which..... would allow more trips without ever turning on the ice and more electricity substituted for gasoline. That is a much easier requirement, using a larger battery, than building an entirely new fueling infrastructure.
     
    #41 austingreen, Oct 24, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2014
  2. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    It is also a factor of diminishing returns, where it becomes less and less of a priority... hence the relative measure to other comparable vehicles.
     
  3. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    Somewhere? Been there. I put this together in 2012. Volt is cleaner is a few states but not in overwhelming majority of the states.

    [​IMG]

    I have not seen solar being cheaper but I guess it is possible with huge incentives. Solar energy will help with sustainability but those incentives will not sustain.

    The trick is to get the costs of PV panels down before incentives go away. In that case, Volt needs more than 3 miracles to sustain as a greener practical vehicle than 50 MPG Prius.

    I think FCV will be cleaner than the Volt. Volt is already heavier than a midsize SUV. FCV battery is the size of a regular hybrid.

    It uses no petroleum during manufacturing and very little energy is needed to recycle as nature will take care of degradation.

    Early adopter who wants an EV but with gas convenience. Oh, and has a lot of money and believes to be a mass-marketable technology.

    You are looking only at short-term. Look beyond what's possible after the initial nuisance.
     
    #43 usbseawolf2000, Oct 24, 2014
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  4. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Since the only place fcv are going to be sold for the near future lets just look there shall we?
    California basking in record amount of electricity from solar | Local News | The Seattle Times
    Now his math is a little off and payback longer, but if you took out a 20 year loan the monthly payment would be lower than his old bill, and the current regulatory environment says grid electricity is going to get more expensive there. It is currently cheaper in austin when installing a new roof because of big subsidies. Retrofits pay a little of a premium, it is very affordable if you want to go solar. A large percentage of volts here are solar or wind. All of the volts and other plug-ins in mueller which is a new development are solar, because the utility is tracking what the panels plus cars do to the grid. There were bigger subsidies for permission to be tracked as part of a study.

    Use current grid instead of the past, and your analysis will show even grid without bonus of wind or solar, produces less ghg than a 50 mpg car where these cars are sold.


    Well since most are sold where they already produce less ghg than a prius, they don't need any miricles at all. Some regions where they sell badly they are worse, but remember not that big of a population wants a prius. Sure the model most traded for a volt is a prius, but they are older prii, and toyota doesn't seem to want to give people a longer range plug in. 30% are other gm cars, the next ones are civic, bmw 3 series, and camry. I don't see how volts make the enviroment worse. Do you think the camry is cleaner than a volt? So even in places like Indiana a volt likely produces less ghg than the car the driver would have bought instead. Ofcourse that driver in Indiana can not service or fuel a fcv, but the fuel cell lobby likes to use it as a reason that fcv are cleaner. What a joke.

    Ofcourse if you score the fcv the same way as the volt, it is much dirtier than a prius and a volt. I belive you have systemic mistakes in your analysis, but hey, believe what you have to believe.

    Did you even bother to read the article?
    Yet you and john are arguing against the volt because somehow a fuel cell is less expensive or easier to fuel? You don't think plug-in subsidies are good but you want much bigger ones for fcv because? How about compared to the i3 + solar + a gas can? How about compared to the model 3?

    So tell me again, who the customer is that would choose this over a phev even with bigger incentives in the next 5 to 10 years.

    No. I just want the over hyped crap to stop. Its not cleaner. Its not easier to fuel than a plug-in when you include phevs. It is not cheaper than a comparable plug-in.

    I'm all for pure research, and let the trial begin, but we should not change the rules again to make them even more favorable for fcv. Why do phevs have 10 year required waranties on batteries, but there isn't any requirement for fcv fuel cell stack or tanks? Seems like others might be short sited when it comes to the volt.
     
    #44 austingreen, Oct 24, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 26, 2014
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  5. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Toyota labeling their fuel cell vehicles with HSD is nothing but marketing. Their is no hard technical connection between then and their hybrid vehicles. They get away with it because the experience on the electric side of the hybrids. Unless an axle on their FCEV is being driven by 2 or more electric motors through a planetary gear, it has more in common with their eQ than a Prius.
    The Volt is nearly 3800 pounds. The Honda Clarity FCEV is over 3500 pounds. Three pounds is a big difference, but we can't overlook that both cars are over a ton and a half. There is no reason to expect Toyota's FCEV will be below that 1 1/2 ton number. Its fuel tanks maybe heavier than Honda's since they are for the higher pressure.

    PS: The Mazda CX-5 has the same interior space as the Chevy Equinox. It weighs 3223lbs, and the Prius phv weighs 3194lbs.
    Then let Japan, Germany, and the other northern European countries deal with initial nuisance. Why should California tax payer money go to building hydrogen infrastructure when the future of fuel cells could be methanol at this point?

    Most here probably aren't against fuel cells themselves, but against hydrogen fueled ones and/or ones that aren't plug in. I personally think metal hydride for holding the hydrogen would be great. Then I could get a set of fueled up discs from a dispenser next to the supermarket along with the one for propane tanks, self bottled water, and DVDs for my weekly(less if plug in) fuel needs. Instead of going to a station and then the supermarket.

    This local disc swapping for normal fueling means we would have to build fewer hydrogen stations to meet the needs of long distance travelers. They are also low pressure. So will have cost saving in equipment or be able to handle more cars in a day than high pressure ones needed for gaseous tank fuel cells. Pushing ahead on FCEVs in Ca now means wasting resources on the high pressure stations now. I admit metal hydride is a ways out, but Japan has already penned out a 12000psi standard for their hydrogen network and cars.
    Since those asked won't answer, the answer is at best a maybe going to a no if FCEVs become popular. Handling gases, specially at high pressure, is no where as simple as handling a fluid. It requires the station to have a pressurized tank to fill cars from efficiently. This tank size and pump speed determine how many cars a station can fill in a day. The current 'largest' ones can handle 50 in a day, IIRC. Most in Ca. are smaller. It is important to keep in mind that is number it can handle over an entire day. If there is a rush of cars, the tank can deplete even if still under that per day number. Then the last ones in line can be waiting as long as a BEV fast charger would take. They would have to sit there, and not be able to take a bite or window shop or so on. Plus, they may not even get a full fill due to the lower tank pressure at the station.
    I'm sure Toyota would be fine having to provide a 10yr/150k mile warranty on their FCEV battery. They do so on their hybrids without much extra expense, and they are all HSD, right?
     
  6. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    If Volts are replacing Priuses, we have very little environmental gains. Perhaps, loss if we consider the entire life cycle.

    To be honest, you sound like a Volt fanboy afraid of FCV leap frogging it.

    I own a plugin hybrid and I have never charged it in public. I have not stumble upon where I went, so far. I have an app to find them but it is such a pain and not worth using it.

    PiP require dedicated 115V 15 amp outdoor plug. They are not available everywhere like pro-EVs would hype up. L2 chargers are even more rare.

    Super Chargers are not standard and only Tesla EVs can use them. It is not the case with FCVs where H2 has a standard SAE pump.

    The same motor, inverter, regen and the (patented?) power blending and splitting logic. Remember, blending and splitting power does not need the planetary gearset.

    HSD is all about getting the most with the least by utilizing synergy between two power sources.

    Yet, a compact 4 seater Volt weights 3800 lbs.

    PiP is greener than CX-5. Volt is not greener than PiP. That point was totally ignored. Interior space, low carbon footprint, cost, refuel speed are all the attributes that needs to be balanced. Volt comes up short in many, as it is focused heavily (no pun intended) in the battery.

    They are and so should we.

    Government provide infrastructure. Car manufactures make a clean mass producible vehicle.

    Why should a tax payer in Hawaii that walks to work pay for the federal highway system?

    All these discussions are good. It helps bring out our own bias, into light.
     
    #46 usbseawolf2000, Oct 24, 2014
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  7. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Funnily enough, we are on the same page on metal hydride for hydrogen storage. It also turns out we have them in our NiMH batteries. The chemistry is based on hydrogen storage in the matrix. But given their limited Ahr capacity, I'm curious what is the limiting factor? The metal hydride matrix or the nickel hydroxide layer.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  8. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    I'm sorry - but being uber-subsidized to get the price all the way down to the cost of a Tesla is NOT mass producable in anyone's book. Not to mention that the Tesla infrastructure doesn't plan on raping taxpayers the way hydrogen cars would necessarily have to do.
    .
     
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  9. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Nice cutting to avoid the full idea.
    Volts are replacing as a mix cars that get worse gas milage and no miles are electricity. Prii are part of this mix, in fact, because some initial adpters that bought the prius, now want to move to the next phase, and toyota is not providing them a path as good as the volt or leaf (or even some tesla). When used with the energy mix these volt drivers are using, they produce less ghg than the prius. The amount of ghg is only slightly lesss, but oil consumption is much less, and most have no tail pipe emission on their daily commutes, ontly on longer trips.

    Not everyone wants a prius. Not even a majority of toyota loyalists want a prius. If your yardstick is anying less efficient than a prius is bad, then why does toyota sell camries and sequoias and tundras? Its a non-sensical attitude.

    Again the article is about long range phevs being better than fcv. Its an opinion piece that I agree with. You on the other hand keep making false statements as if fcv are convient to fuel or greener. You know if half the hype about this car were true, I would welcome it, but we have heard this song and dance for many years. I don't have anywhere to fuel a fcv, and if I did I would not choose it. I don't think you have any convient place to fuel one either. How can fcv leapfrog the current i3 and gen II volt, when there is no where to fill up, and prices are much higher? It just doesn't make any sense. You are against $9000 for the i3 rex and volt but for $13000 ($8000 federal + $5000 state) in california plus $220M for hydrogen stations plus 9 zev credits plus no waranty requirements, because? I just don't get it. Say the credits are worth $2K each and they make 22,000 fcv (higher than I would estimate in the next 8 years) then each fcv get $13K+$18K+$10K or $41K each. Why are you for the bigger subsidies?

    And how many hydogen stations do you think you can fuel at? That seems like more of apain to me than finding a public charging station or a gas station. I know you think fuel cells are magic but...

    Well if you actually were replying to the article you would note Sexton did not include your car in the discussion. Why? Because the phevs she included could be recharged at home and/or work for daily duty. I think that handles your objection, unless you think that you should get an extra $4K for being able to fill up at the now 11 hydrogen sations and to not be able to plug-in or fill with gasoline. After that and the other subsidies the toyota fcv is still too epensive for americans, or do you think they will sell as well as the volt or leaf or model S or i3 with those subsidies. I don't think so.

    So I wish that we just try the fcv with the current subsidies, and let them expire in 2018. If the fcv blows us away and does anything close to the hype, it shouldn't need subsidies after that anyway. When toyota does the hydrogen hype thing, I really wish they would not put out false negative pr against plug ins. That is where alot of the anti toyota fcv talk is aimed Fine they got the subsidies increased last year, can they at least be honest that the fcv is not a better value than a tesla S and isn't easier to refuell than a volt.
     
    #49 austingreen, Oct 24, 2014
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  10. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    How do you blend power with one motor?
    Then say that, or it is heavier than the Equinox, which is Chevy's smallest, private sold SUV, such as the CX-5 is Mazda's. Mid-size SUV let's casual readers infer that you are speaking about trucks like the Highlander, that start at over 2 tons.
    Why does the government have to provide the infrastructure? Did they provide it for gasoline? What if they built it and the car makers don't offer product? Will the government have to build it again if fuel cells go to methanol or natural gas directly?

    If the car makers feel they have a product ready for sale, why can't they make the major investment for infrastructure? Tesla feels their car is ready for primetime, and built their own fast charging network. They got some help from the government, but most of the risk was on them, and many(all?) of the government programs they used were open to all. Hydrogen infrastructure is for 3 to 4 car companies, and gets a bigger piece than plug in infrastructure does, which all car companies benefit from. How much solar and wind electric could California put in for the cost of these refueling stations.

    Why can't we follow the electric generation path? The first plants were private built. When they got established and proven, then the government helped expand the infrastructure outward to serve a greater part of the population.

    The guy in Hawaii benefits from the highway system in that allows companies operate at lower cost, which means lower costs on goods for him. His state also gets federal dollars for its own roads, which lets road trucks deliver goods more efficiently than 4WD ones on dirt or old lava ones. How would refueling stations for what some would call toys for the rich in a state across the ocean benefit him? Why must he pay for the beta test when others are already willing?

    This discussion should be on a separate thread, likely in the politics section, to continue.
     
  11. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    The inverter blends the power from the fc stack with the power from battery.

    In the case of gas-electric HSD, you are combining two different forms of energy (mechanical+electrical), therefore planetary gear set was used.

    In FCV, both power are in the form of electricity. The traction motor becomes the ring gear equivalent of the power-split device acting as a blending device.

    The same goes for splitting the excess power from the fc stack. There is no need for a mechanical device.

    The power flow of both systems are logically the same. So would the algorithm. BSFC for fc stack would be different than of Atkinson cycle ICE. That info would just be used as reference data to get the optimal efficiency of the entire system, resulting in Synergy.
     
  12. cycledrum

    cycledrum PSOCSOASP

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    As promised, I called piercey Toyota parts and a service advisor.

    Toyota parts told me the Prius Plug-in Li Ion battery cost is just under $10,000 ($9,800 ish) Wow.

    The service advifor reminded me the original Prius battery was something like $6 or $7k back in the 2001 Prius days.

    What do you guys think of a $10k price tag on the PiP battery? Would it come down to 3 or $4k in 6 years?
     
  13. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I'm not sure what that has to do with this thread, but no toyota has no incentive to bring the price down for replacement parts. There is very little chance the next generation will use the same pack, and toyota seems to want to make a huge margin on replacement pacs. I would guess an out of waranty fuel cell would cost $100,000 for a toyota with less mark up.

    The leaf, volt, tesla packs are much less expensive per kwh. Here is the leaf pak that is more than 4x bigger but $4300 less.
    Nissan Leaf New Battery Cost: $5,500 For Replacement With Heat-Resistant Chemistry
     
  14. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    Is that the price with returning the core (old pack)? Probably not.

    I think that's the true price of automotive grade li-ion pack, without government incentives. The cost to replace for Volt and Leaf packs are heavily subsidized.

    I think the price will come down as the same cells are used in Ford Energies hybrids.
     
  15. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Yes, Toyota claims it is HSD due to their past experience with hybrids. Fuel cell cars just aren't hybrids. Hybrid cars are named such because they contained two kinetic energy or motive types; the ICE and electric drive. They only use one fuel. Hybrid could be applied if the car has two different on board fuel sources. Such as a bi-fuel with a gasoline and CNG tank, and PHV with gasoline and grid power.

    The FCEVs on the road now or soon are not a hybrid by either of those definitions. There is just one drive train type; electric, and just one fuel type; hydrogen. Toyota is free to apply HSD to any of their non-hybrids, but it is just marketing bs. I take exception because it sows confusion on what a hybrid actually is.

    If a FCEV had a plug, it can be called a hybrid, but that works against the fuel cell lobby's goal of discrediting plug ins while the real competition is standard petroleum fueled cars.

    Really, a capital S.:rolleyes:
    In what way?
     
  16. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    There is no government subsidy for replacement packs. I also doubt gm or nissan or tesla will lose much money on the packs. They won't replace many in the next few yaers, but those they do will help build consumer confidence (good will) in the companies cars. Tesla has the cheapest cost per kwh, $12,000 for a 85 kwh pack, but you need to buy it years before the old pack goes bad. By the time there is any real volume of replacement packs battery costs should be lower these prices. The low costs include trading in th old pack.

    On toyota the mark up is similar to the nimh pack in the prius. There is a big profit margin here, and it hasn't hurt sales of prius liftbacks. For those concerned with replacement though this may be an obstacle that hurts prius phv sales. The ford's battery cells are the same, so ther is an option for rebuilt packs, but if you want a new pack, you will have to pay toyota. Toyota may change pricing if they A) want to sell more prius phvs and B) think the higher replacement price is hurting sales. I doubt both conditons apply. In 2017 we will know if a new improved battery in the next gen prius phv is less expensive to replace.
     
    #56 austingreen, Oct 25, 2014
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  17. F8L

    F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

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    Not that is makes a huge difference to this debate but I switched over to my trip A meter and noticed I have used 345ga (approx.) of gasoline in the last 36,000 miles I've driven my Volt. That's a lot of gas to be certain. However, in the same number of miles on my 2012 Prius I used about 692ga of gasoline. From a reduced gas use standpoint this cut my usage in half.

    The only other electrified car on the market that would be cleaner for my driving patterns and needs would be a Model S but I cannot afford one.

    For folks like bisco and usbseawolf2000, the PIP is the cleanest option. It's good to have choices. :)
     
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  18. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

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    Fuel cell cars have: Stack + MG + Battery (chemical storage + electric storage; one or two motors)
    Electric cars have: MG + Battery (electric storage; one motor)

    You said the first with a plug will automatically be a hybrid? The electric storage is the same...
     
  19. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Batteries are a chemical storage for electricity. Having a fuel cell and a battery is essentially the same as having two packs of different chemistries.

    Like a how hybrid gets all its energy from gasoline, a FCEV gets all its energy from hydrogen. A plug in FCEV would be a hybrid because it gets energy from hydrogen and the grid, if you count bi-fuel vehicles as hybrids.
     
    #59 Trollbait, Oct 25, 2014
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  20. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    That's very good, and certainly a lot better than I guessed a year ago you would find. Are you taking less long trips, or able to charge at work ?

    I may be wrong, but I don't think anybody is entertaining a hydrogen FC car also having a big traction battery for grid charging.

    I understand the FCEV as being a serial design:
    FC -> battery -> transmission
    The FC is spec'd for say, operation to provide 3x average power requirements, and the battery is a buffer for brief very high power demands. Just as a Prius has a small traction battery to allow an Atkinsonized, small ICE, the battery in a FCEV allows the designers to spec a small FC.
     
    #60 SageBrush, Oct 25, 2014
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