1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

How Audi, BMW & Mercedes plan to compete with Tesla

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Ashlem, Oct 31, 2014.

  1. Ashlem

    Ashlem Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2013
    754
    502
    0
    Location:
    WI
    Vehicle:
    2017 Chevy Volt
    Model:
    N/A
    How Audi, BMW & Mercedes Plan To Compete With Tesla--And Why

    Basically Tesla came out with a good car that people liked, and the other automakers (in Germany at least) had nothing comparable to it.

    I often wonder, if Toyota never came out with the prius, or Tesla with a good, albeit expensive, electric vehicle, if car companies would have even of bothered with them.

    Either way, consumers win because now other car companies are forced to accept that electric vehicles are here to stay with the resounding success of Tesla. Same thing with hybrids thanks to the Prius.

    Granted, they're still mostly a niche market, but over time as more hybrids and EV's will start coming out, and be better than their previous generation of vehicles, which should also lower their prices thanks to economies of scale at work here.
     
    austingreen and telmo744 like this.
  2. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2008
    6,154
    4,145
    1
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
    Competition helps drive innovation.

    This has been long established and I welcome someone building a better car, regardless of brand. It simply drives the other manufacturers to build an even better one.
     
  3. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    107,571
    48,862
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    most are half hearted at best and wish it would all just go away.
     
  4. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2008
    6,154
    4,145
    1
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
    Perhaps. I have a feeling though that with EVs, those that don't get onboard will deeply regret it. The potential market is much larger than it is for hybrids (3-4%).

    And the companies that didn't do anything with hybrids regret not having done more. Imagine their regret in 10 years if they don't have an answer to EVs?
     
    Ashlem and Jeff N like this.
  5. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    107,571
    48,862
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    well, that's a lot of opinions and feelings. now i know you're a strong proponent and so am i, but we can't project our beliefs onto theirs. i certainly hope you're right, but in the back of my mind, i'm always thinking, they know more than we do, and i'm not sure they see everything the way we do. that doesn't make either of us right or wrong, the future is always a gamble. that's why so many companies take the easy road of government handouts. but even the government doesn't know the future and handouts are sometimes based on more than science.
     
    mypriuscious likes this.
  6. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2010
    2,168
    764
    0
    Location:
    Portugal
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    I didn't find a reference to Lexus brand in the article. :oops:
    No news is supposed to be good news, but....we haven't seen Toyota group expanding its plug...:sleep:
     
  7. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    107,571
    48,862
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    nope. and i wouldn't count on it in the near future. i'm hoping tesla and nissan can bring costs down. now there's a partnership i'd love to see.
     
  8. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2008
    6,154
    4,145
    1
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
    Luckily Henry Ford, Steve Jobs, Elon Musk, nor any other innovators thought that way :whistle:

    I do my best to be objective about this.
    With EVs at the luxury sedan market an EV gives you.

    Better performance,
    Better safety,
    Lower fueling costs
    More convenient fueling for most
    Smoother and more responsive drive quality than any car at any price point.
    Same price (Audi A8 vs Tesla S85D).

    It is already a hands down winner in that market.
    As more competition arises and build quantity goes up, prices will come down.

    Yes, rebates are very important at the more economical end of the market. However, price savings have already been found and the second generation of mid range ($20-$35k) should make the prices even more attractive.

    Right now in that range EVs biggest drawback is price, which the rebates handle nicely.
    The Range is the next biggest issue limiting their market share.

    Then you have all the other advantages:

    Safer
    More responsive and smoother than cars many times their price.
    More convenient fueling for those whom the range works for.
    Cheaper fueling.

    Yes, the cars are new, and companies are learning how to do it well.
    Which is exactly where competition comes in and helps us all:)
     
    Ashlem likes this.
  9. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    107,571
    48,862
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    putting myself in a gasser's shoes, there is nothing in your list of superior qualities to sway me. it's all about price, range and fueling time for the majority of car buyers.
     
    mypriuscious likes this.
  10. Ashlem

    Ashlem Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2013
    754
    502
    0
    Location:
    WI
    Vehicle:
    2017 Chevy Volt
    Model:
    N/A
    So when gas prices inevitably rise back up again, because OPEC is going to want some new shoes at some point, and an EV that can go 200+ miles in wintertime, takes 10-15 minutes to recharge to an acceptable range, lots of places to recharge them, and costs around $20-25k, will the average joe still not want to consider one?

    They do have an argument now, but electric cars at the moment are at the "brick cell phone" phase of their history. Remember how huge and expensive those first portable phones were? Now they're everywhere, costs are acceptable, and they can do a lot, replacing a lot of other devices such as digital cameras.

    Let's see if people still have the same complaints about them when Tesla's Model 3, and other EV's with similar qualities and more affordable prices show up in a few years.
     
  11. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    107,571
    48,862
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    no one is arguing that it could happen, or that competition is bad. i just don't think there's any way to be sure what the manufacturers believe. until they mass produce something. and a gasser would say they bought the phone after the brick was obsolete, and will do the same when all your predictions come true.
     
  12. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2008
    6,154
    4,145
    1
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
    Swaying you and swaying the majority of the market are not necessarily the same thing.

    If it were, hybrids would have more than 3% of the market.
    I spend far less time, and find it far more convenient to fuel my EV.
    Range matters, until it doesn't ;). For two car families the range only needs to be the daily commute, plus a small 'what if' factor, perhaps 25% on average.

    As for the average buyer, if they compare two cars at the same price point and one offers a better ride and more convenience I'm willing to bet most will buy the better ride and more convenience.

    As I said though, we aren't quite there yet, and humans are resistant, as a whole, to change.

    It is the reason hybrids took as long to get to the numbers they have.
    It is also one of the reasons EVs aren't taking over tomorrow.
     
  13. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    107,571
    48,862
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    that and the frustratingly slow rise in gas prices.
     
  14. 2k1Toaster

    2k1Toaster Brand New Prius Batteries

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2010
    6,035
    3,854
    0
    Location:
    Rocky Mountains
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    One of my best friends just had her big SUV break down. Sounds like a bad misfire from the diagnosis. Talking about new cars, I mentioned the Prius and hybrids and general like I always do to poke fun at her battering ram of death. She is always anti-prius because they are "so ugly". Now she says she likes the look, and lots of cars "look weird today". She's actually "intrigued" by a hybrid.

    To me it seems like a chicken and egg problem. People won't adopt hybrids or EV's because they aren't on the road already, obviously because people aren't adopting them!
     
  15. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    107,571
    48,862
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    most of the people i talk to just don't see the point. like our referendum questions next tueday on gas taxes and bottle bill. both will have a direct negative impact on their lives, and that's all they care about.
     
  16. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    13,525
    4,057
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX, USA
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    We have carrots and we have sticks. The easiest stick we could use to reduce oil consumption is to raise fuel taxes. The government doesn't seem to want to use that, so it is a cop out stick the cafe standards. Now I am all for the increases in these, and or the closing of the SUV loophole, it just is more indirect. Higher cafe standards gives a big carrot for alternate fueled cars, where car makers subsidize these from profits from other vehicles in order to comply with the law. We have a small number of car companies and the old ones are well protected by their home governments. The chance that they get technology wrong from pure inertia is high. We have the current carrot of tax credits for plug-ins. Those things are probably enough to have gotten the tesla S, leaf, volt, prius phv, c-max energi, fusion-energi, i3 i8, and imev. Success with some of these will likely add more and higher volume cars. The imev sadly looks like it will fail.

    The government spending for grants, loans, and tax credits should end up costing tax payers an average of about $1.1B for about 9 years when the prgrograms will run out. If we look up until this point, this is far more effective per federal $ than pngv, freedom car, or any other DOE vehicle program. We can compare it to oil subsidies that are about $4B/yr, or the Iraq war which was about $2T (CBO).

    Now we the california zev stick which seems to be bringing us a lot of different incarnations like the fit ev, fiat ev, rav4 ev, toyota fcv, clarity, tuscon fuel cell. I don't think this stick is really helpful. It seems to have gotten both toyota and fiat chyrsler to engage in a lot of fake anti plug-in PR.

    Ok so we know the winner is toyota. Honda and ford did a lot, but honda did it worse than toyota, and ford didn't have the cash to invest after the explorer tire debacle. I think only GM and Nissan regret not doing more. The others don't really have enough market share in the compact to midsize segment in Japan or the US to have bennefited.

    Toyota has traditionally been a fast follower. I still have some hope that Uchiyamada in a couple of years won't be listened to, and younger people at toyota embrace the plug-in. It may be too late for Lexus in the US if toyota waits too long.
     
    #16 austingreen, Oct 31, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2014
  17. dipper

    dipper Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2005
    1,242
    252
    0
    Well. 2025 is coming. One reason Euro car companies are putting everything plugin and have enough ICE power for "luxury". Guys like Mazda might leave US market if they cannot get close to 54.5 mpg fleet average. Mazda certainly do not want hybrid. Although they have a Gen1 Prius power plant in their Japanese Mazda 3.
     
  18. Jeff F

    Jeff F Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2012
    111
    37
    0
    Location:
    London, Ontario
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    I like this analogy. It's interesting to note though that many of the companies that drove a lot of the development and were heavily identified with the mass adoption of mobile phones - like Motorola and Nokia - are no longer major players in the area. Samsung and Apple came relatively late to the mobile phone market, but now enjoy huge market share. So a successful strategy for a major car company might well be to watch and wait at this stage, and be prepared to jump in if/when there's mainstream demand and money to be made. I'm not sure that holding back is a bad strategy at this stage.
     
  19. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2012
    3,626
    1,623
    0
    Location:
    Sanford, NC
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    Limited
    The converted will buy. The rest will come up with a "reason". When your neighbor or your son/daughter has one and tells you of their positive experience, then maybe.

    I ate dinner out last night. Three couples, three hybrids.
     
  20. 2k1Toaster

    2k1Toaster Brand New Prius Batteries

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2010
    6,035
    3,854
    0
    Location:
    Rocky Mountains
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    At the open tennis courts last weekend there were 6 vehicles. 3 regular Prius, 1 Prius V, my Leaf, and then one big blue saturn SUV.