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Golf Hymotion Fuel-Cell Drive Option

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by bwilson4web, Nov 20, 2014.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Original title: "Volkswagen Golf gets new HyMotion Fuel-Cell Drive Option"
    Ok, now I am wondering what is going on. Was it some recent, high-pressure, hydrogen tank technology that now doesn't suffer hydrogen embrittlement and rapid aging? Perhaps a fuel-cell structure that displaces rare earths formerly used in a catalytic converter to make a fuel cell? Did a key patent expire? I know some have postulated a government subsidized plot . . . but the numbers don't add up. And then here come das auto announcement . . .

    Production, the quantities, is how engineering and development budgets, my profession, are paid off. Sometimes early work lays a foundation, the NHW10 Prius sold in Japan is one such example. Early hybrid skeptics tried to use the same brush to claim the NHW11 and NHW20 would never make a profit forgetting how the NHW10 laid out the architecture and the subsequent cars only had to make incremental improvements. That is a long drink of water for this small swallow.

    We may be seeing early engineering efforts finally getting to the assembly line, laying a foundation. Whether or not the energy companies 'get a clue' and follow-up, we'll see. I wish the fuel-cell companies luck and appreciate that the risks are not trivial.

    Bob Wilson

    ps. I've admired the Golf as the second best VW package although it doesn't do so well in the USA market. Their best . . . the MicroBus . . . my first 1500 cc car.
     
  2. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

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    electric heat is not to efficient.
    I'm seeing quite a difference in the ICE's ability to heat the car as opposed to using a remote electric heat source to warm the car.
    Try defrosting a frozen windscreen using an electric heater. It takes a much longer time and uses a lot of amps.
    I also have a dual watt rated 12V heater and it's low setting is above the cars 12V plug watt rating. It still works and hasn't blown the fuse yet, but it's painfully slow even defogging the windshield and using the a/c to remove humidity in the winter reduces range even more.
    I wonder if N Tesla had already found a solution to electic heat or would have if his electric car was given more support.
     
  3. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    'the most abundant element in the universe'. great, we can stop fueling our vehicles with the less abundant elements.:cool:
     
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  4. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Keep in mind this Golf(a Jetta wagon for American viewers) is a concept car, and the major automakers have had those for decades now. If there was some breakthrough beyond incremental improvements through research, I think we would have heard about it.

    I believe that VW might bring it to California for the same reasons as Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai; their home countries are making an investment in the gaseous hydrogen FCV test and offering large subsidies(I'm sure on Japan about this) just like California. Even then, the cost to the consumer hasn't dropped much. The Hyundai lease rates aren't far off from the first Clarity and F-cell ones.

    As to heating, a fuel cell does generate some waste heat, and EVs will likely move to heat pumps for energy efficiency.

    Just as soon as Congress approves the Keystone XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXL to Jupiter.
     
  5. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    If you look at the promised dates (there aren't any) you would see this is a me too, we aren't far behind announcement. VW doesn't have any fuel cell vehicles green lighted for production, but has a large number of bevs and phevs. VW has been an outspoken proponent of plug-ins lately, and has said it doesn't see much in fuel cells for the next decade.

    On the tank breakthroughs, I don't think there have been any major ones, but the tanks seem to be dropping in cost quickly with the cost drops of carbon fiber. VW group has a lot of cf experience with porsche and lamborghini, although it does seem to be behind bmw in the low cost stuff. Put the right material inside the cf, and cheap plastic on the outside of the tank, and I don't see that you need any breakthroughs. We may guess that 5kg of storage probably costs around $5K, which is not a big part of fcv costs. (hyundai's costs seem to be around $100K more than a similar ice, toyota's $50K more. But no one really knows)

    On using less platinum and palladium, yep fuel cells are doing this, and some in the R&D lab don't use any. Rally hyundai expects to lease 60 in the US this year, toyota lease 180 and sell 20 next, I don't think their has been a mass market break though, but there could be in the future. VW is sucking in government money and doing R&D just in case break though happen. There are lots of fuel cell fork lifts that benefit from PEM fuel cell R&D, and probably provide more direct incentives to make the things cheaper.

    The biggest part of this is the plug in fuel cell A7. With 8.8 kwh of batteries owners might not have to spend as much time driving to hydrogen stations. Those extra batteries and plug, probably mean it can use a smaller less expensive fuel cell.
     
    #5 austingreen, Nov 20, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2014
  6. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

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    I had a '65 beetle, what's a heater?
     
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  7. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Audi says it has 'mastered' hydrogen fuel cells and is ready to launch them | The Verge

    I like the sentiment -

    Its fast, it looks good, it plugs in, but audi doesn't really want to build them or sell them. It is there for when reporters ask why don't you make a fuel cell like toyota. They don't have to spit out why plug-ins are better, they simply have to say the market is not ready. Then they can talk about how few fcv toyota and honda and hyundai sell outside of Japan and korea. Then again if someone does figure it out, vw group won't be far behind, they may even be ahead. People will pay a lot of money for a A7, and it doesn't have to seek out hydrogen stations as often because of the plug.
     
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  8. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    "Inside" too, I suspect.

    Bob Wilson
     
  9. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    That I don't know. I would not be surprised if japan gave out free hydrogen for the next 10 years and keep the 3 million yen subsidy per fcv ($26,000 at today's exchange rate), if they won't sell in larger volumes there in the next generation. BMW is partnered with toyota on carbon fiber, and seems to be pushing the price down quickly. Maybe bmw/toyota can get the tank cost down to $1000/fcv. I have no idea what fuel cell stacks cost toyota, but if they can get it down to around 3 million yen, then with the subsidy, they can sell these things in the home market. Honda too, as it has partnered with gm, and they combined hold most of the fuel cell vehicle patents. The car looks more polished, but we won't know until 2016.

    I don't count toyota out in Japan, but really the hype for america does not match the potential sales.
    http://online.wsj.com/articles/toyota-plans-slow-release-of-hydrogen-powered-car-1416349190
    Tesla and Nissan are already selling 10s of thousands this year ;-) Hopefully you can read the full article, but I think it may be restricted to subscribers.

     
  10. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    perhaps, if vdub is 'ready to go' with fuel cell production, if ever there is a market, toyota is also 'ready to go' with ev production, if ever there is a market.:cool:
     
  11. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    There is a lot of overlap between the two, but I think it will come down to supply chains. The energy carrier for a FCV isn't part of its production. It is for a BEV or even PHV. Companies making plug ins with a fair EV range now will likely have better agreements with battery producers. Not saying that Toyota doesn't, but they are still using mostly NiMH in their cars.
     
  12. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I don't think anyone believes that, they did internal R&D and came up with the Eq. Toyota can catch up to at least mercedes in 3 years simply by hiring tesla again. If they do it right they may be right behind nissan and tesla;-) I don't think Toyota can get anything out of their own R&D in less than 5 years, but with the tesla option who really cares.
     
    #12 austingreen, Nov 21, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2014
  13. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    does that mean tesla is obligated to supply toyota with their latest and greatest tech? or will toyota be out in the cold when someone comes up with a 2-300 mile cross over that charges in a few hours and is selling like hotcakes because gas prices are sky rocketing?
     
  14. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I don't think Tesla has any obligation to work with Toyota. Tesla gave Toyota a sweatheart deal last time negotiated by Akido Toyoda himself, and part of that was for tesla to build good will at toyota. I think the next time it will be negotiated more as equals.

    Telsa has every reason to sell batteries to toyota, or even have panasonic sell batteries out of the gigafactory, and have tesla profit. I don't think they would do engineering on a lexus gs or is to electrify, but as long as it doesn't compete directly, why not as long as tesla makes a profit selling toyota engineering and batteries. I'm sure tesla considers it has a key strategic advantage versus the old line automakers, and that is stores versus dealerships that don't like new technology.

    That is why I don't believe toyota has bet the farm on the mirai. Even their own sales projections are tiny compared to bev projections. I doubt the Chinese or american markets will ever embrace the 10,000 psi hydrogen refueling infrastructure. But both of these markets may embrace big battery phevs above bevs. BEVs are pushed more in europe, japan, and california. Tesla can be quite sucessful if it only gets 2% of the US and Chinese market (720,000 vehicles/year up from 33,000 this year - mirai hopes to sell 700 by the end of next year mainly in japan). Having Toyota be a partner in plug-ins may help Tesla grow the mind share.
     
    #14 austingreen, Nov 22, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2014
  15. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

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    broken?
    mine worked fine every winter, all winter
     
  16. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

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    Nope, just lame. I even changed the thermostat.
     
  17. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

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    lol
    I removed the flex hose to the rear floor outlets under the back seat and removed the back seat backrest for extra space in the back.
    Anyone who rode in the back in the winter would comment on how hot the back seat was, but didn't move from where they were sitting.