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Ethanol in fuel.

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Fuel Economy' started by Britprius, Oct 14, 2014.

  1. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    I've heard that larger displacement engines are more tolerable to E10. Could it be the 'lazy' 5 litre V8's from the 1950's are much happier running on it than a highly strung 800cc 4 pot from the UK?

    It's interesting to hear about Johns experiences with an original Beetle running on E10. I had a friend who owned a 1960's Beetle and he ran it on a paraffin mix, often just paraffin (kerosene), back in the day before emission testing. Gonna show my age now but our old Fergy Tractor ran on a paraffin mix too.
     
  2. Britprius

    Britprius Senior Member

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    GC would you risk fuel with ethanol in any of the above. However slight the risk.

    John (Britprius)
     
  3. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    Nope. If I could afford an E-type I could afford to buy leaded petrol and have it shipped to me in bulk. There is an authorised leaded petrol retailer near me if you're struggling. I know they're few and far between and only one company now make the stuff, and I think that's coming to an end soon.

    But is it the ethanol that's the problem or just the unleaded in an engine designed for lead? Saying that, our climate is damp and ethanol likes to suck up moisture. I wonder if our American friends live in dry states where fogs and mist are a romantic idea and not the norm for 4 months of the year?
     
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  4. Jon Hagen

    Jon Hagen Active Member

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    Yes, I am sure humidity makes a difference. And yes, my part of the world is less wet than some areas.
    Ethanol will not reach out and snatch water from the air outside the fuel system, but if water condenses inside the fuel tank then drips into the fuel, alcohol will absorb it.
    As to the reformulated lead free gasoline being a problem, I would say yes. Many years ago,(we have had to deal with lead free gas since 71) I remember being able to leave the old leaded gas in a fuel tank for up to 5 years without any great amount of corrosion or sludge formation. It would stink and make hard starting, but did little damage. I tried to salvage an older fuel guage sending unit and fuel pickup from a scrapped machine I parked outside for 10+ years with Ethanol free unleaded gasoline still in the tank. The tank and sending unit were corroded beyond any hope of use, so I suspect unleaded / reformulated gasoline is also a problem, this even in our dryer climate..
    Also we see lightly loaded engines designed for leaded fuel have no valve wear problems if lightly loaded on lead free fuel. If a a pre lead free engine is run hard, near it's full power limit much of the time, then hardened valves and valve seats are necessary.
     
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  5. dbcassidy

    dbcassidy Toyota Hybrid Nation, 8 Million Strong

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    The only place for ethanol - is in the pubs!

    DBCassidy
     
  6. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    OK John thank you for the source.
    So I believe you have an error in your OP: it was E10 - not E5 - that showed 6.4% MPG loss in a Prius (nice they used E10, which is of more interest). Also they don't say much about the source of the E0 or E10, so the 6.4% could be due to variations others than the 10% ethanol.

    In the USA the EPA says we should assume the number is 3% loss MPG for E10. The article does not really address why they saw more than the theoretical MPG drop, so pending further documentation, we must assume the US EPA's 3% MPG loss is not scientifically disproven the by UK article. But it could be true, some Prius owners would agree they see larger than 3% MPG loss.
    I agree with you about the right-to-know. But the 5% level sounds familiar. I am thinking 25-yrs ago in the USA, before the Congress/EPA started mandating allowable gasoline recipes, we may have also had <5% allowable as MTBE, ethanol, methanol whatever. Not sure but I seem to recall.
     
    #26 wjtracy, Oct 15, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2014
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  7. Britprius

    Britprius Senior Member

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    wjtracy you are correct about the test with E10, I will modifie my post . From re reading the article it looks like they used the same fuel for the test and added the ethanol to keep the test accurate. E10 "as far as I am aware is not available in the UK yet".
    Another interesting point was that the average difference across the four cars test was 8.4% reduction in economy, and an increase in co2.
    The EU mandate on fuel "including diesel" says it must contain a given percentage of ethanol over a given number of gallons "many millions" of fuel supplied by the manufacturer. The most goes into diesel and is sold as bio diesel. The rest of the requirement is put into premium fuel petrol as this makes up the largest percentage sales in the UK about 95% leaving the super grade mostly free of ethanol in most areas, but not all. Smaller manufacturers supplying below the gallon-age limit are exempt from the requirement to add any ethanol.
    The government admits that there are a large number of older cars still in service mainly by poorer families that are not suitable to run on even E5. The problem with a large number of older cars including vintage collectors cars is that the fuel systems are basically open to the atmosphere. This combined with a damp climate and ethanol makes for trouble.
    In the UK ethanol is added after the parent fuel is loaded into the delivery road tanker because of the damage it can or would cause to storage tanks. It is also not pumped through any land delivery pipework or pumping stations. It is envisaged many petrol stations will need there fuel storage tanks replaced to cope with E10 "Government source".

    John (Britprius)

    Checking on Shell fuels. They refuse to state whether any of there fuels do or do not contain ethanol, this includes Vpower. Even there own web site does not say Vpower is E0 or E free the chances are it is E0, but it is not a certainty. Because of the quantity of fuel that they produce some of there fuel must contain ethanol.

    John (Britprius)
     
    #27 Britprius, Oct 16, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 3, 2015
  8. AzWxGuy

    AzWxGuy Weather Guy

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    Quoting my own message here, it wasn't two weeks later that I got the CEL and a P0420 code. I think my 2008 is about ready to be put out to pasture. Almost 190K. I have a lead on a 2011 Prius Two. I just might be moving to the Gen III group soon.
     
  9. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    ...believe there may some cost-effective options like not fixing or doing a cheaper fix than CARB requires...I really have never heard that E10 could hurt the converter. Ethanol would just be combusted like the gaso as far as I know.
     
  10. AzWxGuy

    AzWxGuy Weather Guy

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    That is what I would think also. Shouldn't matter to the catalytic converter. Yet there appears to be some evidence, however sketchy, to the contrary. From what I have read, E10 fuel when combusted is slightly rich compared to E0. But then I know that the 10% ethanol dilution actually lowers the potential energy in a gallon of gas by some 4000 BTU. I don't know the method of failure, which I guess in the case of an enriched mixture would be overheating. Hard to get a straight story on all this. And, as I said before, I am considering trading up before something even more expensive fails.
     
  11. dbcassidy

    dbcassidy Toyota Hybrid Nation, 8 Million Strong

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    Ethanol is best not in your gas tank but, kept at your local pub!

    DBCassidy
     
  12. 69shovlhed

    69shovlhed Surly tree hugger

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    rich mixture runs cooler; if it leans out is when parts burn up.
     
  13. AzWxGuy

    AzWxGuy Weather Guy

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    Correct as usual 69shovlhed. Remembering back to my carburetor days, SU constant velocity side-draft carburetors, trying to get the airflow synchronized so the jets would be metering the correct amount of fuel. Managed to overheat some spark plugs now and then with a lean mixture. Still don't know for sure if ethanol fouling is a real problem. I have traded up since then to a Gen III.
     
  14. DenToyPri05

    DenToyPri05 Junior Member

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    OK...so all politics aside and focussing on the mileage issue: has anyone experienced E0 helping with mileage or not?
     
  15. Britprius

    Britprius Senior Member

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    I think the answer to your question will be a resounding no as the energy content of Ethanol is lower than that of petrol. So in an engine designed to run on petrol the power output of a mixture will be lower.
    The level of reduction seems to be very variable.

    John (Britprius)
     
  16. GregP507

    GregP507 Senior Member

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    If energy density were the only issue, nitromethane would be used.
     
  17. CrazyLee

    CrazyLee Member

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    DenToyPri05,

    I just got back from a trip to Iowa USA where they sell E0 gas. It is $.10 more per gallon, but that makes it cheap enough to try it. It was very cold there and I really didn't see much of an improvement. I ran 3 tank fulls of E0 and I was showing 40 MPG on the MFD. The car ran fine. It really depends on the individual circumstance that you have on that day to really show an improvement.

    I think that if you find a good quality fuel with E10 then run that and don't worry about the "savings" of E0. It can be a crap shoot on getting good gas from an off brand station verses a major brand. I do like major brands because their fuel "should be" better quality.

    2004 Prius basic, 15,000 miles
     
  18. Britprius

    Britprius Senior Member

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    Nitromethane's main advantage is it carries most of the oxygen needed for combustion. Petrol has nearly 4x the energy density of nm, but requires 7x the amount of air to burn it. Further nm is expensive and would require nearly 4x the amount of fuel, but less air to produce the same power as petrol.

    John (Britprius)
     
  19. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    Some people say zero some say 10% or more better...in theory E0 is 3% better MPG. Keep in mind there are really two variables, the energy content of the base fuel and ethanol content. Therefore going to E0 does not necessarily mean you have increased energy content versus your base case E10. My feeling there is probably about 10% MPG difference between the lowest energy content E10 (in my RFG area) and the highest energy content E0. Since energy content is not a gaso specification, you don't know that without some testing (MPG or what I do is get density sometimes).

    I assume CO is not an RFG (reformulated gasoline) area so that means your base E10 probably has more energy than mine. It also means you may have more variation in energy contents than we do in RFG areas. RFG areas we are essentially banned from E0 sales so we cannot tell you. Gotta figure lots of Prii >50% in E10 mandate areas of the USA.
     
    #39 wjtracy, Feb 3, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2015
  20. 69shovlhed

    69shovlhed Surly tree hugger

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    why don't you try it and tell us how it works for you.

    otoh, I wish I had a car designed for nitro. guess I'd need some Depends too.