1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Bronze age ended because?

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by tochatihu, Nov 17, 2014.

  1. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,995
    3,507
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    I did not know it, but apparently this was among the lines of evidence that climate excursions are bad for you

    Climate change was not to blame for the collapse of the Bronze Age

    but more comprehensive 14C dating showed the timing to be off. So, if this was on your list of concerns, you may remove it, or at least move it to the bottom.

    And we can score another point for the self-correcting nature of science.
     
    #1 tochatihu, Nov 17, 2014
    austingreen likes this.
  2. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2011
    3,292
    547
    0
    Location:
    2014 Prius c
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    II
    1) when they carbon-dated Egyptian pyramids, didn't they find that they were 200 years younger? Turned out the calibration was off.

    2) Many years ago when we visited Mesa Verde site, was interesting to talk to resident researchers. From excavation they knew what happened: population moved from mesa into cliff shelters, then they built sun temple and then civilization collapsed and population disappeared. Researchers knew that collapse happened due to drought, but the rest was a mystery.

    Noone had considered that prior to drought, there was a period of harsh winters with increased snowfall. Deeper snow coverage in winter had forced population move from ground dwelling into cliffs. BTW more snow meant bigger harvest, so population actually increased for several generations prior to collapsing due to drought. And apparently drought persisted, sun temple did help their cause either, so they split and moved to other communities which were better off.

    Wouldn't be surprised if there is some kind of similar scenario was in place here as well. Probabilities aren't that great for 2 events co-inside so close and be completely unrelated
     
    #2 cyclopathic, Nov 21, 2014
  3. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,995
    3,507
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    Thanks for joining me here cyclo, but hey, those pyramids were built from calcium carbonate (limestone). This rock has its own special way with carbon isotopes and when water passes though it , more strange things happen.

    I don't know how many years ago, but I was watching a TV show saying that 'opening this Egyptian tomb will allow gas sampling to reveal its age' Maybe the first time I ever laughed out loud at my TV.

    The study I cited did 14C in many peat cores, which are much better for the dating game. Especially when made into narrow slices. The climate 'blip' missed the bronze -> iron transition.

    Iron is just a much better metal for warfare. If you have enough wood, you move to iron. They had enough wood and used it :) )

    Youve heard the chiche' Stone age did not end because of lack of stones. Bronze age did not end because of lack of copper and tin. Each XXX age is replaced by something 'better'.

    Now we are in the coal age. It will be supplanted, but before coal is exhausted. Supplanted by better.
     
    #3 tochatihu, Nov 22, 2014
  4. GregP507

    GregP507 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2014
    3,002
    480
    0
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    I'm not sure how you carbon-date a pyramid, however...
    To unravel why civilizations fail, I'm not sure you always need catastrophic climate change. Empires are built on power structures which consist of a ruling class who are able to control the lower classes and commerce of the surrounding area. Military force is used to keep power concentrated and those structures in place. If leadership is too weak to maintain control, the empire factionalizes, breaking up and weakening itself from internal strife within. Economics can be a catalyst; disrupted trade and foreign wars are major impacts, and in an agriculturally-based system, climate change is only one factor of many that have to align to keep an empire going.
     
    #4 GregP507, Nov 22, 2014
  5. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,736
    11,325
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Actually bronze is a stronger metal than iron, ans the Bronze Age likely ended with the loss of tin supplies. Steel, of course, is better than bronze, but the shift to iron took place after the loss of bronze in most places.
     
    #5 Trollbait, Nov 22, 2014
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)