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Deep ocean NOT Warming ,ocean holds No missing heat

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by mojo, Nov 27, 2014.

  1. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    1. Land based ice melt
    2. Water based ice melt
    3. Temperature rise in the first 2000 meters of ocean depth
    I'll say it again, in case that will help: the NASA study aims were to allocate sea level rise causes. My money is on more of (1) than is currently considered, but time and more science will tell the tale.
     
  2. mojo

    mojo Senior Member

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    Thats the beauty of this study.
    Theres no need for computer modeling .No Guesses.
    Its all from empirical measurements from state of the art Argo probes.
    You dont need to wonder.Just read it.
    There is no heat hiding in the deep ocean and climate scientists are
    either fools or liars .


     
  3. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Gawd, if somebody would just READ Llovel, that would simply things here. They used ARGO for 0 to 2000 M which is where those probes live. Their Fig. 3 tells you how much heat has been added to 0 to 2000 M ocean. Mojo has told us that ARGO is state of the art, so it must be true. This 'slice' of the oceans is absorbing a lot of heat.

    I have already bored you all with talk about what we might examine heat fluxes in deeper waters. It is unknown and probably very hard to know. It may not matter for air T over scale of millenia or less (we care about) because of slow vertical mixing.

    They used GRACE satellites in resolving sea-level rise. As I recall, mojo has previously told us that GRACE satellite data is useless because, gosh, I can't remember why. Anyway, any such concerns have been washed away. Mojo has signed on with Llovel.

    For me, Llovel shows that 0 to 2000 M ocean is sinking earth's added heat (from infrared trapping, unless some other mechanism fits better), and that deeper ocean water remains unknown (+/- large). Perhaps unknowable with current technology.

    Does all this mean that much earth's new heat has not gone into oceans? Gawd, read the paper.
     
  4. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

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    #24 Jeff N, Nov 28, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2014
  5. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Hi Jeff, welcome to the bazaar. If 2014 beats 2010 and 1998, it will not be by much, and somebody will tell you that the air-T records have been 'cooked'. By somebody, and with malfeasance from a very large group, any among whom could just decide to follow their conscience and blow the whistle.

    We have another nearby thread on temperature if you are interested.
     
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  6. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    But then they would lose those generous stipends from 'WEALTH REDISTRIBUTION, Inc.'
     
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  7. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    Aren't you 7 weeks late to this party?
    This looks like the same report that immediately started another thread on the same topic here: NASA ocean temperature study
     
  8. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Now that is funny as we had a discussion earlier this year about that hotspot in the Northern Pacific found on the UNISYS site while looking for something else. At the time, one of the PC folks called it 'weather' and nothing remarkable.

    I just checked and that Northern Pacific hot spot is now colder, significantly. The only warm areas are the Gulf Stream and the area off the East coast of Greenland and Northwest of Iceland. But UNISYS reports the cooling was an anomaly in their historical data files, possibly a shadow of the earlier hot spot. It just goes to show how we always need to check original sources.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #28 bwilson4web, Nov 28, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2014
  9. GregP507

    GregP507 Senior Member

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    I'll say it again, read the Original Post.

    The theory is that during the 1976-1998 warming spell, the earth warmed considerably. Air temperatures rose, and the oceans absorbed heat. After 1998 global air temperatures did not rise (as confirmed by prominent IPCC scientist Kevin Trenberth). For a time, Trenberth was asserting that global warming was continuing in the ocean, if not on land. We'll see how he deals with this new evidence.

    For several years after 1998, the oceans released that stored heat, mostly in the arctic, which gave the illusion of continuing global warming. It appears that by 2005, the reservoir of excess heat in the oceans had depleted, according to the NASA study.

    Now it appears that there's no apparent global warming either in the air or in the ocean. Despite this, headlines continue to claim that every climate-related event is the result of human impacts. Climates change, they always have and they always will.
     
  10. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Found it: Where is it hot? | PriusChat
    [​IMG]
    This is the current map that shows the 'cooling' of the Northern Pacific.

    Then here is what it looked like 11 months ago:[​IMG]
    This is what UNISYS had to say about their maps:
    Source: Unisys SST Anomaly Maps Update | Unisys Weather

    Bob Wilson
     
    #30 bwilson4web, Nov 28, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2014
  11. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    #31 SageBrush, Nov 28, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2014
  12. GregP507

    GregP507 Senior Member

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    There are millions of individual pieces of data to support one side of the argument or the other. I feel it's pointless to wade through them all endlessly. That's why I'm focusing only on the most compelling parts. Sorry if it appears that I'm copping out. I'm not.
     
  13. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    ^^ If only.

    Try this simple question: is the Earth gaining heat ?
    Add up the changes in total Earth ice and ocean temperature down to 2000 meters. I showed you the ocean data in post #31

    As a check on your calculation, compare the value to that calculated from ocean rise.
     
  14. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    No problem, you are useful:
    This reminds me of a Biblical story:
    Source: Genesis 18

    Since there are "There are millions of individual pieces of data . . .", perhaps you might list your favorite 10?

    Bob Wilson
     
  15. GregP507

    GregP507 Senior Member

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    I'm not convinced that the earth is gaining heat, outside of normal climate variations. I've detailed my reasons in previous posts. This thread deals with a NASA study, which makes a compelling argument which supports one of my other arguments.

    I'm not going to dispute your data, because I don't have the resources to do so. To me, it doesn't make it valid or invalid. My beliefs are based on what I've researched, experienced and learned, and so are yours.

    Bob, If things get emotional again, I'll have to put you back on ignore.
     
    #35 GregP507, Nov 28, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 28, 2014
  16. FL_Prius_Driver

    FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member

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    Unfortunately, the "gaining heat" focus of this and other threads somewhat sidesteps the real issue needing to be addressed. How about this question:

    What is the effect of dumping every last buried carbon molecule of oil, gas, coal, etc. in the earth's crust into the atmosphere as CO2?

    In other words, what is the effect of the greatest unconstrained pollution dump possible on this planet?


    The discussion of global warming aspects always seems to diverge into issues of "why this measurement is right or wrong" and obscures the real question above.
     
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  17. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    Greg, I read the NASA piece.
    They basically took the measurements of the upper ocean to calculate the expansion of the upper level, added the rise to to melt and that basically equaled the total rise observed.

    GW "stopping" would be one explanation, however there are others.
    It does not appear that the study quantified how much energy went into melting arctic ice, which does not add to sea level.
    There may also be negative feedbacks we have not identified, or quantified well.

    GW is all about energy balance. That excess energy can be expressed as heat, or as work melting ice, or evaporating water.
    We can and do measure the amount of incoming energy to the earth, and the outgoing.
    There is more coming in than going out and that disparity is growing.
    Just because we haven't been able to nail down where that energy is going or what it is doing doesn't mean the disparity doesn't exist.
     
  18. GregP507

    GregP507 Senior Member

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    The CO2 rise is often cited as "proof" of temperature rise. That theory has been largely dispelled. Ice-cores from Antarctica clearly show that CO2 rise followed temperature rise, it did not precede it.

    I would have to write a book (which no one would read) to fully explain all my beliefs about climate change. Many other books have already been written on both sides, and I do mean many. That's why it's pointless to squabble over each issue, and call each other names. If you don't agree with my posts, that's fine, but we don't have enough hours in a day to rehash the same stuff over and over.

    My main issue is with the scientific process which appears to be broken. This is evidenced by the name-calling, the cherry-picking and the fudging of data, presumably for some great political end. I'll just focus on those things which are hardest to pick apart.
     
    #38 GregP507, Nov 28, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 28, 2014
  19. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    Greg, I have called you no names at all.
    The data you have been provided has been very straight forward, although the details of it get quite complicated as our climate is a very complicated thing.

    It basically comes down to more energy hitting earth than leaving it.
    This discrepancy is increasing and we are trying to find out where the energy is going.

    The very scientific process you called broken is how we are learning more all the time. The scientific method is WHY we now have evidence that the extra energy is not currently being absorbed by the deep ocean.

    To me, this shows that the process is working.
     
  20. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Try that again, as two questions:
    1. Is the Earth gaining heat
    2. If so, why ?