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Tesla Extends Range

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by bwilson4web, Dec 26, 2014.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I'll post a link later but according to an EDN article, the Tesla blends the front and rear motor to use the highest efficiency motor for the particular speed range. Electric drive motors can be tweaked for peak efficiency at different speed ranges. So what works best at low speed won't be as efficient at high speeds and vice versa. Imagine an AWG in which the front is optimized for high-speed and the rear for low-speed, a two-speed transmission. With enough power, it would work.

    FFYI: This Dude Scares The Crap Out Of Everyone In His Tesla P85D

    Bob Wilson

    Fun For Your Information <GRINS>
     
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  2. fotomoto

    fotomoto Senior Member

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    OK, it's nowhere near the same but I made similar videos in my volt in sport mode but..... I let the participants do the driving. Of course, they didn't have the "insane" reactions of the P85d rides but 100% of them (including a doubting gear-head Corvette owner) had a huge grin on their face afterwards! One drive in a full power EV is all it takes. (y)
     
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  3. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    to think that an awd would be more efficient than 2wd, just the opposite of a gasser is pretty amazing and could eventually be a big reason for people to switch from suburu's and the like.
     
  4. fotomoto

    fotomoto Senior Member

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    Another reason you'll see more EV AWD types across the board is better performance handling; i.e., torque vectoring.
     
  5. GregP507

    GregP507 Senior Member

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    Nothing in this discussion so far has been cost-effective. But neither is the Prius for that matter, so write most of it off to recreation I suppose.
     
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  6. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Ahhh, here is the article: Design News - News - Tesla Adds All-Wheel Drive, Autopilot to Model S

    I grew up when von Braun's team sent men to the moon and back. Burt Rutan is the brilliant aircraft engineer who made pusher-prop, canard, foam-and fiber-glass planes including one that circled the earth non-stop and non-refueled. I am lucky to be alive with Elon Musk and his brilliant career.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #26 bwilson4web, Jan 28, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2015
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  7. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Honda's 3-motor AWD hybrid system does this. It is their one motor system powering the front axle, and an electric motor at each rear wheel.
     
  8. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    which model is that on?
     
  9. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    This only works with electronic awd with a plug-in, that is not subaru.

    Awd adds weight, there just is no getting around that, with tesla's implementation in the 85d this weight gain is small as they use a smaller rear engine. The weight gain is compensated for by the regen on the front axle in the 85d's case giving it 5 more milss of range, and making the motors peak at different rpm allows a higher top speed as a bonus. With a hybrid that doesn't plug-in there would be furthur electrical losses ICE -> generator -> motor instead of just battery pack to motor, or in subarus case extra transmission losses, so this is really just a plug-in trick.

    Subarus though are going to cost a lot less than a plug-in. If you are in a snow state, with the electrical hit cold makes, subarus still will have appeal.
     
    #29 austingreen, Jan 28, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2015
  10. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Right now just the Acura RLX. Honda's official name for the system is Sport Hybrid SH-AWD. They have a NSX, I think, concept with it.

    It's mated to a V6, so don't expect it to be used on a non-power hybrid anytime soon.
     
  11. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    The improved efficiency over a mechanical AWD comes about because the front and rear drives are not mechanically coupled. Tire wear alone means a coupled, front-rear drive will always have stress between the front and rear tires. To keep the tires from just scrubbing off more tire rubber, there has to be some sort of 'slip' mechanism in a mechanical, AWG. In contrast, the electric separated, front and rear wheel drives don't have to fight the different tire diameters from normal wear.

    Although weight can change, it is more important to look at the ratio of power-to-weight. A tiny car with say 10 hp/lb will out run a higher powered, 9 hp/lb car every day of the week. Weight alone does not predict performance nor efficiency.

    Now if I wanted to make a bad-nice person, street racer:
    • All wheel, independent drive.
      • Independent velocity sensor to modulate wheel torque to the verge of release
      • Alternative, tire sensors to measure rim-to-belt displacement
    • Dual-turbo prop engines, one for front and rear.
      • One should do a trade-study for higher power density sources like ultra-caps
    • Skirts around including outside the wheel well.
      • Vacuum pump to maximize the down-force, tire loading
    Today racers are limited by the 1-G downforce which limits how much forward force can be applied via the tires. More power and they just make more smoke and don't go anywhere. To accelerate faster using tires, we need downforce from the beginning to the end. So I would have the car 'suck' the road when starting and maximum tire strain to the end.

    Bob Wilson
     
  12. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    For a full description and review
    Acura RLX Reviews - Acura RLX Price, Photos, and Specs - CARandDRIVER
    This probably can best be compared to the Lexus GSh (29 city, 34 hwy) and bmw activehybrid5 (23 city, 30 hwy) so the Accura did fairly well (28 city, 32 hwy) with a new awd hybrid system that adds a smaller price premium to the car. The problem is the rest of the accura is not as desirable as a Audi 6 or a BMW 5. Audi expects 40% of luxury cars like this to be hybrid or plug-in by 2030.

    Still these big luxurious hybrids have thirsty V6 engines. Put a lighter more efficient turbo di I4, add 7 kwh of batteries, a plug, and a more powerful rear electrical motor and after tax credits you will have a less expensive vehicle but one that is even smoother and more powerful with better cs mpg and a bonus of some electric miles.
     
    #32 austingreen, Jan 28, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2015
  13. GregP507

    GregP507 Senior Member

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    Yes, I agree, most hybrids are not really an economy car. The numbers never quite add up.

    The more expensive ones are more of a fashion-statement than a cost-effective solution.
     
  14. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Darn, our 2003 and 2010, 52 MPG, paid off Prius are just cuff links in some minds. Fortunately my wallet doesn't care about "style" any more than the gas pump.

    Seriously, this Priuschat, not Esquire-Priuschat.

    Bob Wilson
     
  15. dipper

    dipper Senior Member

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    The cool part is the next NSX is going to do this in reverse. Hybrid in the back, and 2 EV motor to each front wheel.
     
  16. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I think he was talking about "sport hybrid" and "power hybrids" like the lexus gsh and this new accura system that use V8 or V6 ices. The new hyundai sonata eco beats all of their combined mpg (28 cty, 38 hwy), while still getting a respectably fast 6.7 seconds for about half the price of one of these sport hybrids. Add a lot more cash, give up some speed, and you can get even better fuel economy out of the Lexus ESh.

    Still theese sport hybrids get to 60 in less than 5.5 seconds and handle better. If you need to get there that fast the acura hybrid system (similar to the lexus Rxh awd system but less expensive to implement) is probably best, but .. please put in a more efficient engine like that in the sonata eco or camry hybrid, and get the acceleration with a bigger battery pack and smaller engine..
     
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  17. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    You're right and I was snarky wrong. Just I get pissed that hybrids are treated as 'style' but over powered gassers are not.

    Bob Wilson
     
  18. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Think of it this way, if you are willing to give up a little power and size you can get a bmw 328i (23, 35), but handling is actually improved over a LGSh, or AH5 for a lot less money. The Lexus on the sticker gets slightly better fuel economy (29 city, 34 hwy) but it costs $20,000 more than the bmw, that is a crazy amount of money to get 6 more mpg in the city and worse on the highway. The GSh handles worse than the 3 series and has less passenger room than the sonata eco (28 city, 38 hwy).

    Soon there will be a 328e that creates a phev with this more efficient ice and provides 245 hp which should be fast enough. Then it will be game over for these sports hybrids. The lexus gsh, lsh, bmw activehybrids, etc really are hybrids for the badge. If you want efficiency you need to give something up ;-)
    Real Potential

    The ESh sold 14,837 last year, and its hybrid really does increase its fuel efficiency over similar cars. The avalon that is almost the same sold 17,048.

    As contrast the best selling power hybrid was the Lexus GSh with 183 sales in all of last year. One of the worst values is the Lexus LSh which sold 65 units. I really think the only reason these sell is eco shiek, and with plug-ins they have totally lost their luster.
     
  19. GregP507

    GregP507 Senior Member

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    If I set my mind to it, I could make myself believe I was saving money and saving the environment at the same time, but neither of those things are quite true. The extra cost of the Prius plug-in will never be off-set by the higher price-tag, no matter the discounts or subsidies. If I worked within 10 miles of work and I could plug in for free, it would help, but could have bought the world's best moped for much less money.
     
  20. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    For future note, we should avoid using sport hybrid when discussing power hybrids in general to avoid confusion. The Sport hybrid name is actual in the official names of all Honda's new systems; including the Fit and Accord. They are the Sport Hybrid Intelligent Dual Clutch Drive and Sport Hybrid Intelligent Multi Mode Drive.
     
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