1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Newbie with questions re: Gen 1

Discussion in 'Generation 1 Prius Discussion' started by GDonald, Nov 12, 2014.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,066
    15,372
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Jump it normally making sure the ground and B+ are correct before connecting. Once the car is running, look for a dome light or door ajar. A seat-belt/shoulder-strap can easily make the door appear to close but leave the dome light on. It happens.

    The ground is towards the bumper. The B+ is under the RED cover. The Prius really hates a reverse charge as it tends to blow the expen$ive controllers.

    Once the car is running, test the battery voltage with the jumper removed. It should measure 13.8-13.9V meaning the DC-to-DC converter is working.

    Opps, I forgot about freezing temperatures. If below, zero, it makes sense to bring the battery in the house and let it 'unfreeze' before putting it on a charger. I know, pain-in-the-nice person but when a 12V battery discharges, the electrolyte becomes something close to water that would be frozen.

    I would put the battery in a tub of water overnight because water will help melt the ice. Put a charge on it say 1-2 hours before taking it back to the car. See if it holds 12.2-12.85 V and you'll be OK. Even if as low as 11.5V, you'll probably be OK, not great, but able to get the car running.

    I've seen our 2003 Prius start with a voltage as low as 10.5 V but it was ugly, unreliable, and often needed a boost. I ordered an Exceed 925 and it took a week or so to show up.

    There are reports there is a 30 ma. parasitic load. I've not measured it but it makes sense as a typical 12V battery will last about 3-5 weeks before self-discharge leaves it unable to boot the car.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #21 bwilson4web, Dec 14, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2014
  2. usnavystgc

    usnavystgc Die Hard DIYer and Ebike enthusiast.

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2011
    3,159
    988
    0
    Location:
    Tucson, AZ
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    You can jump it, just make sure you don't reverse polarity (been done too many times here). Its not that different from any other car. The battery will not freeze but will become weaker when its that cold. Sitting for a week doesn't help.
     
  3. valde3

    valde3 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2014
    2,002
    745
    0
    Location:
    Finland
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Not really for GDonald since the battery in your Prius isn’t frozen as it can still operate something.
    But if it’s cold enough and battery is empty enough for long enough it can freeze. With regular car jumping at that point is dangerous for the car (alternator doesn’t work properly without battery). But Prius can operate without the battery so you should be able to jump it even then. But frozen battery can develop acid leaks and is unlikely to work again so you should just replace it. And even to get it partially working again you have to get it unfrozen which will take from long to eternity in a Prius.
     
  4. GregP507

    GregP507 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2014
    3,002
    480
    0
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    You don't need a degree from the Battery University to know not to reverse polarity. That's rule 1.
     
  5. usnavystgc

    usnavystgc Die Hard DIYer and Ebike enthusiast.

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2011
    3,159
    988
    0
    Location:
    Tucson, AZ
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    I hear ya Greg but, we've seen it over and over again on PC and sometimes its a AAA mechanic/driver that does it.
     
    #25 usnavystgc, Dec 15, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2015
  6. GDonald

    GDonald Junior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2014
    48
    2
    0
    Location:
    Vergennes, VT
    Vehicle:
    2002 Prius
    Model:
    II
    GregP507, JimboPalmer, Bob Wilson, dabard051, Chap, usnavystgc, valde3:


    Thanks to all of you for taking the time to educate me. Obviously, I liked what I got since I'm back for more: Remember, if you will, I was advised to get a battery tender system, and I did, a Schumacher SEM-1562A. However, the instructions says "do not operate in an enclosed space." You can't get much more "closed space" than a shut trunk on a car parked outside, so, we haven't used the tender yet. We have, however, had to jump the Prius with a "power pack" three times in the last month (temperatures in north central Vermont have hit well below zero on a few occasions) which leads me to today's questions: 1. Do you foresee any harm from closing the trunk when the battery tender is operating, and, 2. Would DEPENDING on a power pack jump start, rather than the tender, do harm? Thanks again.
     
  7. GregP507

    GregP507 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2014
    3,002
    480
    0
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    The "closed-space" proviso is because small amounts of hydrogen gas can be produced by the battery, which is flammable. Not a problem inside the car, because the battery is vented to the outside.
     
  8. Britprius

    Britprius Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2010
    5,194
    1,910
    0
    Location:
    Herefordshire England
    Vehicle:
    2008 Prius
    As Greg above said the battery is vented to the outside of the car. However with small low current chargers and maintainers "below 4 amps for the Prius OEM battery" the battery will not gas as (1) it is sealed by pressure regulation valves. (2) below this level of charge any gasses produced "hydrogen and oxygen" are re combined by a catalyst to produce water and returned to the battery.

    John (Britprius)
     
  9. GregP507

    GregP507 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2014
    3,002
    480
    0
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    I forgot to mention that.
     
  10. GDonald

    GDonald Junior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2014
    48
    2
    0
    Location:
    Vergennes, VT
    Vehicle:
    2002 Prius
    Model:
    II
    Thanks, Greg and John; that's valuable, and reassuring, information. Any thoughts on my other question: Will it do harm to depend on a power pack rather than use a battery tender?
     
  11. Britprius

    Britprius Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2010
    5,194
    1,910
    0
    Location:
    Herefordshire England
    Vehicle:
    2008 Prius
    Providing under no circumstances do you connect the starter pack with reverse polarity even for a split second. That mistake could cost you a lot of money.

    John (Britprius)
     
  12. GregP507

    GregP507 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2014
    3,002
    480
    0
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    The problem with using any charging system which does not manage the charge-state, and only relies on a trickle-current, is that it starts to destroy the battery, once a full charge state has been achieved. I attached a trickle-charger to my 91 T-bird over the winter, and by the spring, the battery was completely ruined. A battery tender constantly checks the charge-state, and applies a trickle-current as needed. I've had a battery-tender attached to the battery in my 2006 Dodge Ram for over 6 years, and the battery seems as good as always.
     
  13. Britprius

    Britprius Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2010
    5,194
    1,910
    0
    Location:
    Herefordshire England
    Vehicle:
    2008 Prius
    The charger you have is not really man enough to charge the Prius battery in a reasonable time scale. It will do no harm if used on the Prius Battery to maintain the charge, but according to the manual for your charger it is not suitable for batteries over 33 AH. The Prius battery is 45 AH.

    John (Britprius)
     
  14. valde3

    valde3 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2014
    2,002
    745
    0
    Location:
    Finland
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    If you don’t charge the battery it stage of charge will drop, if you don’t drive enough, which is happening, since you have to use starter pack. Battery will wear faster if its stage of charge is low and if you get it low enough and it’s colder than -8c or 18F for long enough it can freeze and get ruined.
     
  15. GDonald

    GDonald Junior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2014
    48
    2
    0
    Location:
    Vergennes, VT
    Vehicle:
    2002 Prius
    Model:
    II
    John, et al.--Talking to CarQuest this morning, they harumphed a bit and then said, "The only 45AH tender we can offer is wheeled." I'm going online now to poke about, but do you, off hand, know of a more affordable option?--Don
     
  16. GDonald

    GDonald Junior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2014
    48
    2
    0
    Location:
    Vergennes, VT
    Vehicle:
    2002 Prius
    Model:
    II
    And, educate me, please. My attempts online are thwarted by my ignorance. For instance: 1. What does "AH"--as in 45AH--mean? I don't find any such term in the specifications for the chargers/tenders I see listed, and 2. Greg warns about using a simple trickle charger. I see some products which advertise themselves as "charger/tender" but can't verify they actually do what Greg says they need to do. What would I look for in the product specs that would tell me that it is, as advertised, a "tender" that won't ruin the battery.
     
  17. Britprius

    Britprius Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2010
    5,194
    1,910
    0
    Location:
    Herefordshire England
    Vehicle:
    2008 Prius
    The charger you are looking for has an output of around 3 to 4 amps and is suitable for AGM batteries. You can buy variable output chargers that have two or more rates of charge say 4 amps or 12 amps. The Prius battery has a maximum charge rate of 4.5 amps.
    The confusion you are getting is. 45 AH is the capacity of the battery. 4.5 amps is the maximum charge rate "the number of amps that you can charge the battery at maximum".
    If the charger you have was used to charge your battery from discharged and the charging was 100% efficient "which it is not" it would take 30 hours:- 45 AH (amp hours capacity) divided by your charger charge rate 1.5 amps = 30 hours.
    This is complicated further by inefficiency, and the fact that as the charge level in the battery increases the actual charge rate from most chargers goes down considerably as does the batteries ability to accept the charge. This means the charging time with your charger could easily be 60 hours or more.
    The person you spoke to was thinking of a charger with a 45 amp or more charge rate "not the same thing as the battery capacity (45 AH)" and that charge rate would quickly destroy your battery.
    I will look and notify of some likely chargers.

    John (Britprius)
     
  18. GregP507

    GregP507 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2014
    3,002
    480
    0
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    There's nothing "unsuitable" about a battery-charger which only delivers a few amps to charge a battery, it simply takes longer. It also bears mentioning that a Prius battery is smaller than a regular car battery. It also bears mentioning that if you are using a battery charger regularly to charge your battery, you have bigger problems.

    As I have explained before, an automatic battery charger or a battery-tender knows when to stop charging. A simple trickle-charger does not, and if left on for too long may eventually destroy the battery. Some trickle-chargers may not be advertised as "automatic" or "battery-tenders" but they may be regulated to the maximum voltage of the battery, which is the next-best thing to a battery-tender, because the voltage doesn't rise once current is reduced, to exceed the maximum voltage a battery can withstand.

    Most inexpensive chargers don't do this however, because firstly, they cost more to produce, and secondly, they don't give quick results, like you would get with an unregulated higher-voltage charger.
     
    #38 GregP507, Feb 2, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2015
  19. Britprius

    Britprius Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2010
    5,194
    1,910
    0
    Location:
    Herefordshire England
    Vehicle:
    2008 Prius
    To charge your battery in a reasonable time scale you need a charger with a 4 amp output, that is suitable for AGM batteries, and automatic adjust the charging rate "a so called smart charger".
    The charger can be capable of higher outputs "selectable", but the OEM Prius battery must not be charged at higher than 4.5 amps. Many of the aftermarket batteries can be charged at higher rates if fitted. My suggestion is the Schumacher SC1200a as this will also be capable of higher rates of charge on possible other cars in the household. $45 at Walmart.
    There will be other suitable chargers, but the basic requirements are in my first sentence. No doubt other recommendations will follow.
    Having looked at the manuals of many other Schumacher chargers maintainers. They clearly state on the lower charge rate models that the chargers will take a considerable amount of time to charge batteries over 20 AH. Or may not charge them fully leading to possible battery failure from sulphation.

    John (Britprius
     
  20. GregP507

    GregP507 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2014
    3,002
    480
    0
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    More importantly, why would you need to charge a dead battery in a Prius? If it's going dead, there has to be a reason, and that's where the problem lies. This type of battery is damaged when it's allowed to go flat, therefore it should happen rarely, and charging it with a battery charger should be a fairly rare event. Buying a special charger with a higher charging rate for what should be a rare event makes very little sense.