1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Is a plug-in hybrid really the best of both driving worlds?

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Tideland Prius, Feb 27, 2015.

  1. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2006
    11,309
    3,586
    1
    Location:
    Northern VA (NoVA)
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    As far as why Toyota has slowed down on PiP availability, my theory is maybe Toyota were planning on CA Green HOV stickers running out last year (when PiPs were selling like hot cakes in record numbers). So then CA extended the green stickers, taking away the lower supply intended for elsewhere. For my theory to work, I then have to invoke Toyota (and GM) had no interest in chasing the green stickers (with more production) when extended.
     
  2. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2009
    6,722
    2,120
    45
    Location:
    North Yorkshire, UK
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    III
    It's becomming more apparent to me that there's been a change of culture at Toyota and the PIP was only a bare bones compliance car that was never meant to really sell. Why else is it not available to the whole of the US and why is it so ridiculously expensive elsewhere?

    The Gen4/Gen2 PIP will prove this to me one way or the other depending on it's specs and pricing. If' the gen2 PIP has 25+ miles EV, sold throughout the US and sold for a reasonable/competitive price over here, then Toyota are serious. If it's not, then Toyota are now just paying lip service.
     
    Tideland Prius and Trollbait like this.
  3. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2005
    19,605
    8,036
    54
    Location:
    Montana & Nashville, TN
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    although john will disagree - welcome to the club of reality... some of us grabbed a hold of this reality a over year or more ago. but there is hope. I think Toyota may realize that their hydrogen car is a giant turd - and all the marketing in the world won't make it a green car. Because in reality, at best, it's just an expensive car that runs on natural gas. That paradigm shift away from stupid - will eventually enable Toyota to ramp up plug ins once again. Hopefully. It may take a while. I'm thinking that if Toyota's next plugin rev doesn't have greater range - it's because they lost their way for a while. The optimist in me says eventually they'll get back on track.
    .
     
    #43 hill, Mar 2, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2015
    austingreen and GrumpyCabbie like this.
  4. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    107,571
    48,862
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    everyone is following the tax dollars. when the fcv dollars run out, they will all move on. as for toyota ever going back to plug in, i think it's debatable, but i'm not going to criticize them yet, they still make some of the best cars in the world, and i'm driving the best one. the good thing is, you can buy one and drive it home if they don't sell it in your state. as for gc's flame war, i'd be unhappy too if i had to face the choices the uk is facing.
     
    austingreen likes this.
  5. 2k1Toaster

    2k1Toaster Brand New Prius Batteries

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2010
    6,035
    3,854
    0
    Location:
    Rocky Mountains
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    I prefer to have a regular Prius for trips that exceed my BEV range. My Leaf does all the daily driving now, close to 10K miles, and the Prius is only used if the trip is longer than 100miles. For us that is almost every weekend in the mountains, where we go about 260miles in extremely mountainous terrain. Even a Tesla 85 wouldn't cut it. But we are weird, and admit that...
     
    austingreen likes this.
  6. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    107,571
    48,862
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    that's the second best solution. the best would be gen IV hsd with plug in and selectable battery size.
     
  7. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2004
    44,768
    16,017
    41
    Location:
    Canada
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Unfortunately we'll have to wait an extra year since reports state that it'll arrive a year after the launch of the Gen 4 (which makes sense I suppose since the Gen 1 PiP didn't arrive until late 2012 as a 2012 model. Most are 2013 model year and newer).
     
  8. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2009
    6,722
    2,120
    45
    Location:
    North Yorkshire, UK
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    III
    Flame war? a war? lol

    Nearly six years ago when I got my Prius they were leading edge and Toyota were ahead with their Prius and pushing the boundaries; the PIP was two years away and the Prius V/+ was imminent, as was the C and Yaris hybrid.

    Now we have delays and delays and disappointing direction; the Mirai. Instead of leading the pack, they're making complicance cars. Why I don't know? Is it because Honda have all but given up on hybrids? Or as I mentioned in my flame war, maybe Toyota have just had a change of culture and would rather settle down and just comply rather than lead?

    I'm disappointed because I like them as a company (we own two cars and both are Toyotas), but I see them losing customers (many loyal ex Toyota) to the cheaper, better specced competition. I question their direction and thus according to this forum, a troll.
     
  9. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,068
    15,372
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Then there are at least two of us, brother.

    Criticism of Toyota does not make a troll (I call her 'wife' or 'teenager') . . . advocating another ride can come close (depends on framing or prefixed 'ex') . . . advocating non-automotive products becomes a SPAM . . . selling services like 'green cards' is legacy SPAM.

    Bob Wilson
     
  10. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,595
    11,220
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Honda hasn't given up on hybrids. Their new generation of systems are challenging, or beating, Toyota. The Fit hybrid beat the Aqua/c on the japan test when it arrived, and I think it did so while keeping the Magic Seats. We won't get it, perhaps a sedan or SUV version, but I thought it was available in the UK. The Accord hybrid has the highest MPG rating of the mid-size sedans that comes close to the Prius numbers, and users on Fuelly appear to be getting them. The concern is whether Honda has learned its lesson on the battery issue with their older Civic and Insight hybrids.

    Honda has stopped on BEVs, and don't expect the Accord PHV to stay around. The Fit EV was offered to some states outside California, but when the CARB incentives heavily favored FCVs they figured, "hey, we already have a FCV." So there will be the next gen Clarity coming out.

    Toyota is making for the home market. FCVs have large incentives there, and a hydrogen infrastructure isn't as big as an investment. For Japan, they do make some sense. Hydrogen can be made from a varity of sources, and they won't be has dependent on petroleum. Toyota is pushing FCVs in other markets to help spread their costs around.
     
  11. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    107,571
    48,862
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    as i said, i'd be disappointed too, if i were in your shoes. over here, toyota is doing a wonderful job. best products on the market, and a great variety of hybrids at decent prices. i don't know what their problem with the uk is, but like everything else, probably political.
     
  12. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    13,525
    4,057
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX, USA
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    +1
    Toyota leaks (I'm sure they were official) said that customers were asking for more range in the phv and they would likely add it in the next generation. While Toyota marketing is acting as if the mirai is a mass production car that will sell better than plug-ins, officially toyota corporate is saying they will only make 5700 in the first 3 years, and Toyota and Honda have only committed to 6000 cars between them for Japan by 2020. Toyota corporate even painted the chairman as don quixote in his push for fuel cells.

    The Chairman of toyota's board is fully behind hydrogen, and akio toyoda seems content to let him have his way for now. But remember Toyoda is the guy that struck a brilliant deal with tesla, netting the company $700M in profit and Musk gave him a tesla roadster as a gift. I've got to believe toyoda sees the world clearly and has a back up plan for when his chairman's hydrogen push fails. Between now and 2017 I believe they are content to sell 3000 compliance cars to satisfy CARBs mandate.
     
    #52 austingreen, Mar 5, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2015
  13. markabele

    markabele owner of PiP, then Leaf, then Model 3

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    5,084
    1,782
    1
    Location:
    Nebraska
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    Getting back to the OP/title question:

    For me and those like me, the PiP is perfect. I live in an area where nothing I need is really more than about 5 or 6 miles away. I also take semi-frequent 800+ mile round trips. Lastly, I need something that can haul a decent amount of cargo relative to it's size. So again, the PiP is absolutely perfect for me.
     
  14. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2006
    11,309
    3,586
    1
    Location:
    Northern VA (NoVA)
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    I am back to thinking plug-in-lite (Li batt) will be "standard" Gen4 option on the hybrid, probably more expensive, and new PiP may go for brass ring as far as getting decent EV miles. We should know pretty soon I guess. Maybe there will be a lot of new PiPs and a I do not know whatchacallit Super PiP?
     
    #54 wjtracy, Mar 7, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2015
  15. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2008
    6,155
    4,146
    1
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
    That is wonderful, I'm glad you found the car that best meets your needs.
    There really isn't a "the best". There is a best for each individual and it sounds like you found yours :)
     
    bwilson4web and markabele like this.
  16. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    107,571
    48,862
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    that's why ev's don't work right now and plug in hybrid is the best of all worlds. at least when you run out of plug, you're getting 50-60 mpg. until ev's can check all the boxes, plug in hybrids are it.
     
  17. frodoz737

    frodoz737 Top Wrench

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2010
    4,297
    2,347
    33
    Location:
    Texas
    Vehicle:
    2015 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    Plug-In Hybrids are only the best of both worlds when Total Cost of Ownership beats out the other options based on an individuals usage....just like regular Hybrids.
     
  18. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2008
    6,155
    4,146
    1
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
    Again, the one size fits all approach is wrong.
    For some, PHEVs are the worst option.
    For some, BEVs are the absolute best option.
    For some, PHEVs really are the best of both worlds.

    These blanket statements are rather silly though, and are inaccurate.
     
    drash and Jeff N like this.
  19. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    107,571
    48,862
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    with all due respect, i disagree. it's not a thread about what size fits all, it's about what is the best of both worlds. currently, phev is the best, imo. i also disagree that bev's will ever capture much of the market, as long as people have to decide how many miles fit their driving habits, all things being equal. but i think we both know where we each stand.
     
  20. markabele

    markabele owner of PiP, then Leaf, then Model 3

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    5,084
    1,782
    1
    Location:
    Nebraska
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    I personally think "ever" is a little strong. The smaller, lighter, and cheaper batteries get the more we will see EV's capture market share. Then there is the whole possibility of wireless charging within roads. Lots of unforeseen things out there to say "ever."

    As a side note, I don't see many people owning cars 40-50 years from now, but that's just my personal opinion based on where I see technology headed.