Why Can't Other Plug-In Hybrids Copy Chevy Volt's All-Electric Running?

Excuses? There is no need for excuses if they are doing the right things.

Your views are backwards buddy and you have a lot of explaining to do. What is the social benefit of rewarding $7,500 to drive an EV as clean as a 34 MPG gas car?

I think Toyota took the "Win-Win or no deal" path. It chose not to roll it out in the states where there is no "Win-Win" situations because the alternatives were either "Win-Lose", "Lose-Win" or "Lose-Lose". No deal was clearly the best choice.

Although 60% can be cleaner with electric miles, it does not take account of emission during production of the big battery pack. Even if we ignore it, is $7,500 worth it? How much cleaner should it get in order to be worth it? $7,500 can buy 3,000 gallons of gas which Prius would go 150,000 miles. If it is for energy security, the cost to displace gasoline cost as much as gasoline itself.

The best approach is to roll out cleaner EV propulsion system where there is "Win-Win" situation with the least amount of tax dollars. This means the EV speed and power has to be limited to achieve it. There has to be certain amount of emission reduction to justify the tax credit amount.

You claim the remaining 40% can buy greener electricity. This assumes that you would get what you paid for. This is not true in this case simply due to how the grid works. Utility company is not going to run a dedicated copper wire supplying renewable electricity directly to your plugin outlet. Your plugin is going to charge at night, mostly likely with electricity mainly from fossil fuel (natural gas or coal).

Here is an analogy. If you buy apples but consumes oranges, you are not getting apples. The best you can say is, you consume a mixture of apples and oranges (regional grid average).

Rolling out plugin cars in dirty electricity states is like putting the horse in front of the cart. Clean up the grid first then, (responsible) plugin car manufactures can justify selling them.

I thought PiP2 is coming out a year after the Gen4 Prius.

Mirai uses electricity as fuel also. I don't get what you mean. Do you mean you must have a battery car?

If you must have a battery car, don't wait for it from Toyota. They've already said it needs a breakthrough and the current batteries do not give enough range, fast recharge time, interior space or is mass marketable reliably. The car also become a "battery carrier" because the pack would weight more than passengers it can carry. They have not given up on BEV as they are still working on solid state battery.

Toyota was giving $4-5k discount to move PiPs because GM was "dumping" Volt in the plugin market. Nissan was also forced to cut Leaf's price and the resale value plummeted.

PiPs were selling at the same price (or lower) as Prius III with 0% interest. I can't say for sure they are losing money but they can't be making money, for sure.

 

Only for those living in the selected states. The PIP has been out for long enough to sell to all states. It's not for sale in all states because Toyota does not believe it is worth the effort. It certainly sold where it was available, so why restrict availability?

The Mirai uses H2 as the primary fuel. Again, it is only for those living in the selected states and even then in very restricted locations. And yes, a battery car should be in Toyota's strategy. It's certainly in mine. I'm voting with my wallet before too long and Toyota is parting ways with quite a few Prius owners wondering what obtuseness has taken over. Every justification for excusing Toyota from developing a EV would have been justification for not developing a Prius.

Toyota PR announcements are also equivalent to declaring that Telsa failed years ago...except they have not. Make no mistake, the same lame excuses Toyota is making for avoiding EVs is the same motivation for letting the PiP wither on the vine.

 

I have heard two-mode doesn't have to be more expensive, but 2 of the partners - bmw and mercedes have both said it was too expensive. I guess its like a dog and violin show. All I have to see is 1 one dog playing a violin, to believe you can train one, but until you do I won't trust you. Even toyota has failed to sell all that many power hybrids, with the rxh/hihy mildly sucessful but the other v8 and v6 hsd projects costing way to much to sell in decent quantities. Now perhaps technical advances in two-mode were possible, but they weren't likely, and even gm has seen other paths
Two-Mode Hybrid Program Cancelled For Next-Generation GM Trucks, SUVs In Favor Of New Project | GM Authority

But the reason for the dislike is I believe that GM probably used the two mode as an excuse not to build more efficient cars and to fight increased cafe standards. No one knows for sure but people inside gm, but 2-mode looked like an anti-small hybrid cars and anti-phev strategy. Wagoner and Lutz while falling short of admitting this strategy, have both said they were wrong about small hybrids and should have invested more. I posted Mr. Wagoner's statement from LA times 2009 in this thread.

Of course getting back on track I think we need a lot of choice of efficient cars. GM looks like they got the there first lower cost non-plug-in hybrid coming out only about 7 years after that admission. Toyota owns the hybrid market with over 60% global share. Honda is number 2 but many hybrids in japan don't ship outside, and Ford coming in 3rd.

IMHO in this early stage we should have blended, and erev phevs as well as long range bevs. So far only tesla has a long range bev, but chevy, ford, and nissan are working on them. Ford with their energi leads the blended phevspace but vw hyundai and bmw want to compete there, and the gen II volt should put chevy ahead of bmw's i3-rex in the erev phev.

 

I am waiting for next gen of cars coming out in the next 24 months to replace my 10 years old Prius. It is starting to look like I will not be stepping into a Toyota. Nissan, Chevy, hopefully Tesla comes out in time, and even the lowly Mitsubishi is getting my interest. Maybe the SoulEV if they add more batteries.

 

I'm not sure about the conspiracy theories about why GM did 2-mode the way they did. I think it's as least as likely that they simply misjudged the willingness of the market to buy hybrid pickups and large SUV. GM just wasn't doing much with small or even mid-sized passenger cars back then. Their profits were from SUVs and trucks so they though -- hey, let's hybridize SUVs and pickup trucks. Makes sense, right?

Unfortunately for GM, most people are interested in hybrids for maximizing mpg in commuter cars. As you noted, power or performance-oriented hybrids have generally not sold well for Toyota or Honda either. Remember the previous generation Honda Accord performance-oriented hybrid? And low volume also means expensive to manufacture.

 

You need to stop judging everything by your priorities. There is more reasons for reducing gasoline use beyond carbon emissions, and a plugin can move the emission of NOx, particulates, CO, and hydrocarbons, all of which have a direct effect on public health, from metropolitan centers. With will, old or dirty power plants can be cleaned up or shut down for less cost than replacing all the aging ICE powered cars out there.

A FCV can do some of that, and it is an electric car in that its drivetrain is electric only. But it isn't a plugin. Most people saying they want an EV mean they something they can fuel with electricity. Plugging in means even less, or no, stops at a fuel station. And it gives the individual more power over where their fuel comes from. That can't be said with hydrogen.

Electricity is fungible. If you pay someone to make clean electric, you are using clean electric. Even if the coal plant is just down the road. The electric it is producing was paid for by someone else. The flowing electrons are all the same no matter how they are produced.

If you are discounting below cost in order to gain market share, then you hopefully will make it back in the future. Other gains, like ZEV credits or publicity, may offset the loses some. Selling for a loss is only a problem if it is because no one really wants your product.

Plugin prices were high in the beginning. To keep the product moving, discounts were needed until battery production and improvements caught up. Since introduction to last year, the cost of plugin batteries have dropped something like 18% per year. With their larger packs, the Volt's and Leaf's price reductions are likely have been covered for.

If Toyota is waiting for a better product to offer and to reduce losses from discounts, that's fine. Which makes other reasons just excuses to save face in light of the fact that the PPI, as is, isn't a plugin that most people want.

 

Yep no need for excuses if they were doing the right thing. Green house gas being too high in the grid is a poor excuse for not rolling out the prius phv to a few other states. It perpetuates a myth that you stated plain out - We should wait to make plug-ins until they are cleaner than the cleanest car on the whole grid. It just is wrong. Its an excuse. As I said I am hopeful that they will roll out an improved gen II prv outside compliance CARB states, but toyota is mum on the deal. So I am not going to validate the excuse so they can use it again.

You and I have been over this before back and forth. First I didn't write the law, I would have don't it differently, but I support it. I can explain that it is to reduce the cost of plug-in technology. Obama expanded it. Thanks Obama
EV Battery Costs Dropping Faster than Predicted | PriusChat
I guess its working much better than other DOE programs. So really Tanks Obama!

What was the benefit of giving toyota money to build tundra's and tacomas in texas? They may produce less ghg here, but that isn't why they took the money to move production from other states. They did it because we are low cost and high skills, and there was money. There was lots of federal tax payer dollars to toyota for this one.

What is the benefit you know social benefit of paying toyota to move head quaters from california to texas? Toyota is great at taking the money. They don't care if there is a social benefit or not. I am against the program that texas money to do this.

So you can't tell me they won't sell a lousy prius prv in austin where it would produce less green house gas than a prius liftback, and less than and use less than a quarter of the gasoline of a tundra uses here on a typical austin driing cycle - because they are looking out for the environment. It just makes no sense. This is especially true with toyota dealers in my state being the prime donors to the senate to block tesla from selling car from there show rooms.

 

We're back to you simply enjoying debate. Solid business reasons are labeled as excuses for the sake of keeping discussions from concluding.

Fortunately, the fact that GM abandoned its "game changer" plan for what was needed all along speaks for itself.

Automakers are in the business to make money. What they sell to the masses is what makes a difference.

That's so vague, it could mean anything. Define "better" and how the next-gen won't fulfill that. Then tell us who the market is.

Constructive discussion requires an effort to be clear about purpose.

 

I completely agree with the last statement.
So in the interest of clarity, just what "game changer" plan was it that GM abandoned?

 

... how can anyone articulate the Gen II PiP as being better - when we don't even know what it is ... or if it will be ... or presuming there WILL be a better/Gen II PiP, that Toyota PiP's (Gen I or II) will actually be sold in all 50 states. Look how far away hydrogen car production is - and yet by Toyota's own admission - "real" production numbers are way way out far away. Yet Toyota is whooping it up as though it had already happened. Does that mean the party hasn't started for Gen II pip because it's even further out than hydrogen? I hope not .... Just ssyin'.
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Welp, I think the 2016 Volt is going to have a whole LOT of people leaving Toyota Prius / PiP , depending on price.

Oh yes, Volt is smaller inside and doesn't have Prius cargo space, but it looks way better outside, sleeker inside, drives like an EV if you charge it. Obviously many people don't have to have the interior space of liftback. And it's coming out this this Fall (?) I think the Volt is going to hand PiP it's walking papers for a year or so.

But what can the 4th gen bring, hmmmm

 

Here you are again, taking my words out of context again. Please, I don't want your replies, I don't want to debate you.

What I said was that pretending that the grid isn't clean enough, or that the volt or prius phv ghg profiles are not low enough for a rollout is an excuse. Give me a solid business reason for that toyota excuse, when they are selling much higher ghg vehicles or just stop pretending i am saying something I'm not.

Yes the volt got put forth as a game changer and I guess in 20 years we will find out if it was or not. At a similar period of time toyota was making statements about its slow selling prius that turned out to be true. To me the game changer was the tesla roadster, and gm talk puffery, but time will tell. I haven't heard anything about gm abandoning their volt plans though, so you have to fill me in on that one. I am guessing but if wrong tell me, you think gm is going to sell a lotmore malibu hybrids than volts, bolts, and other plug-ins. Well time will tell that as well, but I doubt that. Just because in the 3rd generation of malibu hybrid, it looks more like the camry hybrid doesn't mean they are going to sell a lot of hybrids, or aren't going to invest in R&D for plug-ins.

What a sad world that would be if all we had was f-series trucks, corollas, and cr-vs. I would hope they all are developing tech for the future. BMW, porsche, and Tesla don't even seem to sell many cars to the unwashed masses. Why can't we think of a lower gasoline future? I mean toyota did that when they made the first prius. Ford's F-series last year sold 300,000 more copies than all hybrids combined in the US. Why not embrace that maybe we need some innovation. Hybrids aren't going to do it on their own. Plug-ins have a lot of potential. Give them a chance instead of this constant drone that they need to be this one small thing. I don't think you even believe this stuff you seem to post, as in other posts you seem to support the opposite. I mean you bought a prius phv in a state they don't sell them, so you probably hope that they sell the next generation nation wide, even if some want the excused that the grid is too dirty for plug-ins. I mean you don't expect the mirai to sell in minnesota and sell in volume anytime soon.

Yes and that when you post against a point, that you actually read the point and tell us what your problem with it is instead of taking a snippet out of context and pretending it means something else.

 

That's the same thing we heard 4 years ago and it still doesn't make sense. In fact, that's why GM is now planning to roll out a Malibu full-hybrid.

When someone is in the market for a regular hybrid, a plug-in that offers 40'ish miles of EV isn't part of their purchase criteria.

Know your audience.

 

We have a PCer who went pretty quickly from 2006 Prius to a 2012 Prius non-plugin to a PiP to a Volt (within 2 years time?) I think you know who that is.

I met know an avid road bicyclist, bought first PiP. First words out of mouth, "I wish it had more EV range" I might be a little more interested in a PiP if I like the regular Prius a lot, but I don't.

Some people get a wiff of EV in regular Prius and want a lot more. And have $$

 

UM, how about the GM game changer of not advertising the Volt? If, you make a product, it really, really helps if you advertise it.

Look no further than the level of frustration on the Volt owners web sites.

DBCassidy

 

That would seem to be incorrect.
According to the poll I took, about 20% of Volt owners who responded, previously drove a hybrid.
Efficient car market growth and trends | PriusChat

This Prius owner also moved to a Volt, before moving to a BEV.
However, the more interesting numbers I find is that there were slightly more trucks/SUV replaced by a Volt.
This is reason for celebration, as it is getting some people out of 15-20mpg trucks/SUVs and into Volts!

I suspect GM knows their audience better than you do John.

 

I would add that advertising correctly. For example, I would not want to buy a Prius if I only had Prius advertising to use as basis.

 

It's a new generation of the Volt coming out this fall. There will be advertising....

Round one starts in May with the new Volt's product insert into a new Brad Bird movie starring George Clooney:

'Tomorrowland' movie will advertise Chevy Volt, E-NVs

 

No advertising?
I really liked the 'no gas, no gas, no gas' commercial. Funny

 

There were several commercials for a couple of years, then that was it. A Volt did show up in one of the Transformers movies.