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Why Can't Other Plug-In Hybrids Copy Chevy Volt's All-Electric Running?

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Tideland Prius, Mar 19, 2015.

  1. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Like I said, know your audience.

    Who is the next-gen targeted at?
     
  2. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    John, that is such a meaningless question for you to ask forum members.
    You could ask that of GM, but why ask here.
    All I can tell you is who I have spoken with that has switched to a Volt.

    Tell me, who is the Prius targeted at?
     
  3. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

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    There were constant Volt-specific ads inserted on cable TV channels in the San Francisco Bay Area for the first 2-3 years. I'm guessing the same in Los Angeles.
     
  4. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

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    We didn't get that out here in NJ, just a few in the beginning. As a matter of fact, I think I saw the Leaf commercial with the Volt in it more than Volt commercials.
     
  5. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    From the prius, volt, and leaf commercials I have seen, I can't imagine that tv advertising has been very effective for these. I've seen a bunch of volt commercials, but I live in one of the launch cities. We likely get more of the ad dollars. The prius commercials, even the creapy prius family one ran here more often. The prius didn't advertise on tv here until we were almost on the 3rd generation. I would not judge the cars by ad dollars, but yes the volt and leaf appear to have advertising budgets behind them. My guess is gm is advertising in NJ, but not as much as they are in markets where the volt does better.

    Longer internet infomercial style pr likely is more effective for these cars. GM admitted that there initial advertisements on the car were not effective in explaining the advantages of the volt, even to dealers.
     
    #225 austingreen, Mar 28, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2015
  6. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    This is why...

    Chevrolet Malibu Hybrid Derives Technology from Volt
     
  7. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

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    Current GM commercials don't even mention the Volt, mainly just the bread & butter cars and trucks. I do see a Corvette commercial now and then watching road races. Prius commercials are very rare, Hum, Assface and the Pip vs. fish tank commercials are about it. Even dealer commercials with the Toyotathons only mention the Prius in passing. Leaf commercials are long gone, too.
     
  8. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i like to check into this thread once a day, to see what it's morphed into.:)
     
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  9. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Having changed the clutch in a 1981 Chevette three times in 100,000 miles, I'm not fond of that technology in any transmission. To me, they are a wear item and that means eventual replacement. So I still see the Volt transmission with three clutches as being a little too complex for my tastes ... if I had to pay for the maintenance.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  10. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I am not disagreeing about low volt commercials at all. Its a very complicated message. gm wants you to wait for the next volt, but they don't have hard figures that they can post yet It will be less expensive and have better efficiency, while giving gm a higher profit. Not something gm's ad agency i up to doing well. I don't think they would be helpful.

    We got a lot of prius family here, aka assface, and also coach t during football season in some awful commercials for the prius. All in all I don't think they would be effective. I think pip vs fish tank is pretty awful too, but I have only seen that on the internet, and its better placement.

    Leaf commercials, when they decreased, leaf sales went up. I thought the bear commercial was an awful one when trying to sell the car, and poor performance in sales resulted. correlation does not necessarily mean causation. I thought the "imagine if everything ran on gasoline" clever, but didn't think it would actually sell the car. I mean most leaf buyers have another gasoline car available at home and know they have some good pollution control.;-) bmw is advertising the i here. I don't think it will be effective but its better than assface.
     
  11. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

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    Manual transmission clutches are very different wear items than automatic transmission clutches.

    The original Volt transmission goes out of its way to always synchronize the gear speeds so the clutch changes take place under little or no stress. Some guy on the Volt forum posted a lab analysis of the transmission fluid that he replaced at 80,000 miles and it was actually a lot cleaner and in better shape than prius transmission fluid under similar mileage in spite of the wet clutch shifting.

    I've got 111,000 miles on my Volt
    and am planning to get the transmission fluid changed soon. The Volt with the highest known mileage, sparkie on VoltStats.com, is now up to 225,000 miles without any known transmission problems.

    I don't know of any reason why the new Volt transmission should be any different.
     
  12. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

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    No, no disagreements, just observations.
     
  13. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    One fairly small motor could do that across the board for all of their ordinary vehicles. It would be a good thing. But I suspect there is at least one filter because there are clutches.
    A small filter would be all it takes as the Prius has just a 'chip mesh'. Still after the 3d change to get rid of the early wear and sealant debris, the Prius transaxle oil runs pretty clean because there are no clutches.

    Bob Wilson
     
  14. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

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  15. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    No clutch, no filter needed except to handle the initial wear and sealant beads. But I do wish Toyota had included a transaxle, by-passable filter ... leaky cup comes to mind. It can be 'life time' as once entrapped by the filter, there isn't that much to capture. Hummm, gives me an idea.

    The ZVW30 eliminated the coolant channels in the transaxle by using the oil to transfer MG1/MG2 heat to the case. Now if the next Prius uses the transaxle oil to also cool the silicon-carbide power electronics, it might make sense to have a small filter with an electric pump. A multi-speed, electric pump could eliminate the fixed overhead of the current, engine driven pump, support longer EV modes, and adjust the cooling power to reflect the heat load. But would the case have enough surface area to handle the cooling requirement?

    Bob Wilson
     
  16. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

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    True, to the point when on the highway running like a Prius (with the 3rd clutch engaged) there is a delay after flooring the Go Pedal.

    This is zeroing torque to the clutch, briefly, while the transaxle goes out of parallel hybrid (Prius) and into series hybrid (Volt w/150 HP, regardless of altitude !).

    This might be considered a work around but,,, welcome to the future!


    And the future looks bright for the Gen2 Volt with a lighter, pseudo-Atkins, direct injection 1.5 L engine and an even more advanced transaxle design.

    We're still waiting for official EPA numbers. They are saying 45 mpg combined for the Hybrid Malibu.


    The "Market" is as always: Someone not wanting to burn gas on their daily commute (and the related engine maintenance), in a fully functional EV, and yet they can take off for the coast at a moments notice ! EV driving is almost always the least expensive way to go. Especially if you get to plugin at work.


    We're still waiting for the Next Gen PIP. And why is it still just a compliance car in just a few states?



    Jeff,
    Hey Buddy,,,, RT*M ;), this is called for at 97,500 miles....

    Could you spend another $15-25 and get an analysis? It sounds easy for DIY.

    As you said, are there any clutch wear particles detected in the samples?
     
    #236 Bill Norton, Mar 29, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2015
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  17. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    With my limited TV viewing, I've likely seen more ads for the Volt than for the Prius over the same time.
    If it was a manual, then the clutch is a wear item. The clutches in the Volt have been in automatic and other applications for a long time.

    To view it another way, the clutch of a manual wears because the human operator can't perfectly match the engine rpms to the transmissions. I have never heard of a car or truck even having a guage for the transmission rpms. Some bare bones models don't even have it for the engine. The Volt's clutches are all computer controlled to engage at matched speeds.

    The change interval for automatics with these clutches have been increasing in duration. The 2001 sable is coming up to one of its 30k mile ones. The Sonic's first isn't until 97.5k miles. For the HHR that it replaced, the transmission fluid was considered a life of vehicle part under regular use. The Sonic has got two more gears, which could be cause for an increased in changes, or people just couldn't believe the HHR's tranny fluid and filter would be good for a 100k+ miles or so.
     
  18. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    As always, that difference between WANT and NEED is something not properly addressed.

    The market described is a desire, what supporters of plugging in have wanted for a very very long time. Consequences of having hoped that would be a game-changing solution are now quite apparent. It's really unfortunate that lesson had to be learned the hard way, especially with so many warnings along the way. But it was a WANT they were willing to gamble on... and lost.

    The NEED was to replace the business-sustaining vehicles, those which sold in high-volume for a profit. That's a profound difference. We knew who those consumers were. Yet every time the "Who?" question was asked, the reply was focused on the WANT audience instead.

    It was a disaster in the making. Volt was declared victorious despite not fulfilling the NEED. We could all see that it did not capture the mainstream consumers as anticipated. GM's own customers simply were not interested. So rather than expanding the "market", emphasis was focused on conquest sales instead. That cannibalized what had already been achieved, getting people who had already switched to a high-efficiency vehicle to another. The popular smaller vehicles of GM... Malibu, Impala, Cruze, Equinox... continued on, totally unaffected by Volt.

    Meanwhile, Toyota pushed hard with Prius, diversifying into 3 distinct models and augmenting the most popular. That pushed the brand to top-seller in Japan and to mainstream quantity in the United States. All without tax-credit incentives. Prius has survived the test of time and will be getting a next-gen upgrade later this year. A new vehicle using HSD will be introduced as well. They are all helping to fulfill the NEED.

    Looking at GM plans, we see an upcoming introduction, the full-hybrid Malibu. As much of a WANT there was for Volt to become a high-volume profit-earner to help sustain the business with, we see that it is not. There is no expectation for that with the next-gen model. It will remain a specialty choice, a desirable vehicle for a niche. Focus and hope will be directed to the new Malibu. As a hybrid, there is potential to appeal to showroom shoppers, those intending to purchase a GM vehicle anyway. It will be able to compete directly, a strong advantage over Volt. That NEED is long overdue.

    The "too little, too slowly" concern has finally been taken seriously. Yeah! It's really unfortunate how much of a diversion Volt ended up being. Oh well.
     
  19. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Despite addressing a need, the Prius has yet to match the sales of the top 6 midsize cars or the 6 small cars. It only matches a third of Camry ICE sales. The sales of midsize hybrid sedans might make up 1% of the model's total sales at best. There might be a need for a high fuel efficient hybrid in the line up; most likely to counteract F150, Silverado, and Tundra sales on CAFE, but they won't make any difference to the country's gasoline consumption until the people want one.

    Lack of a full hybrid version was not the reason for poor Malibu sales.
     
  20. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    ???
    This is a very confusing post John.
    Would you consider the Prius a game Changer?
    EV's have grown in sales numbers faster than hybrids did.
    Toyota was dominant in that category.
    For the plugin vehicles there isn't a single dominant player, but three taking the majority share.
    Each with a different solution, which is probably why the market is responding more quickly than they did with hybrids. More choice.

    You paint the Volt as a failure, yet GM is using knowledge they have gained from the Volt in other vehicles, and the second gen Volt (with a number of improvements you stated were needed) rolling out this summer.

    I could see you calling the PiP failure as there seems to be little support for it at Toyota and its future is less certain. I wouldn't agree, but at least there wouldn't be as much evidence to the contrary.