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Why Can't Other Plug-In Hybrids Copy Chevy Volt's All-Electric Running?

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Tideland Prius, Mar 19, 2015.

  1. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

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    It will be interesting to eventually see the MSRP prices for the 2016 Volt and hybrid Malibu. I'm guessing there will be pricing overlap depending upon options. The 2016 Volt pricing will apparently be announced sometime around May. I'm not sure about when the Malibu hybrid pricing will be available.

    Someone open to buying a non-conventional powertrain may be attracted to the Malibu hybrid with a $27,000 window sticker (I'm just guessing at a number here) and then a salesperson might explain that the Volt with a $34,000 window sticker is effectively about the same price after the $7,500 federal credit. It might actually be cheaper after any state rebates or depending upon any dealer discounts etc.

    In other words, Malibu hybrids may actually attract more eventual Volt buyers into dealerships and customers might then choose between the cars based on their interior space needs and usage patterns for the cars, electricity prices etc. I think there are a lot of potential Volt customers today who just don't understand how reasonably priced the Volt already can be.
     
  2. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

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    +1
    I'll second that.
    John, have you started early today????

    The Volt is the highest tech car on the road today. It can go anywhere at anytime and yet for most owners not use the engine for months at a time.
    And can be one of the least expensive cars to drive.
    It had horrible promotion and at least one "major news" had a dramatic inexplicable hatred for the Volt. You know which one.

    3 questions:
    > What will the next gen PiP have to be similar to?
    > Do you remember the last time you were at the gas station? (I don't)
    > Do you remember the last time you had your engine oil changed? (I vaguely do)
     
  3. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    That isn't even remotely close to what I posted.

    Again, the reason for no HIGH-VOLUME BUSINESS-SUSTAINING sales, something directly competitive, was due to nothing being offered.

    Nothing in the category was a blatant problem. There was a huge product gap that scores of outspoken Volt supporters refused to acknowledge.

    Thankfully, GM finally did.

    btw, I've been saying the same thing about FULL hybrids for over a decade now, to the point where people complain about me sounding like a broken record. So, I don't see how my stance could possibly be misinterpreted.
     
    #243 john1701a, Mar 29, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2015
  4. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

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    How and why would I "acknowledge" something I know nothing about? I don't care to know what the current GM product line up is.

    I care about the Volt. It's an awesome, fun, inexpensive to drive car and I would have bought it if Hyundai was selling it.
     
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  5. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Thank you for the honesty.
     
  6. cycledrum

    cycledrum PSOCSOASP

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    Just looked at a Volt owner's cost per mile on Fuelly, but it only shows cost per mile for the gas. What about the electricity too?

    Anyone have lifetime cost per mile for gas + electricity for Volt, PiP, anything else?

    My avg lifetime is $0.075 / mile for 2011 Prius @ 28,709 miles total

    TIA

    I guess you can't tell what electricity costs for car unless have seperate meter for it, doh ...

    :cool::p:D:Do_O:eek:
     
  7. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    Electriity + Gas for about 15,000 miles on a Volt is 5¢/mile.
    That varies widely on driving patterns though.
    On my Leaf, it is about 1.9¢/mile.
    In our Tesla, about 2.4¢/mile.
    Actually, the Tesla is more like 2.1¢/mile when you take into account the free Superchargers.
     
  8. FL_Prius_Driver

    FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member

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    Huh? Did you not get a tax credit incentive for any of the Prius's you owned?
     
  9. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

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    When you don't sell in large numbers, stress growth.

    When you sell in larger numbers, stress those numbers.

    It is easier to grow from small numbers. Witness almost any big company/product that sells in a category where there is established competition.
     
  10. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    That's called quoting out of context. The 3 models did indeed achieve competitive sales against mainstream vehicles, without tax-credit incentives. The additional model did not have that goal, its an extra mid-cycle perk... a taste of what's to come for consumers and a priceless data-collector for business. It won't take that competitive step until the next-gen model.
     
  11. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

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    The most effective US Government Prius incentives from 2003+ came in the form of the Iraq War which drove up gasoline prices dramatically over the span of many years.
     
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  12. FL_Prius_Driver

    FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member

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    That point cuts both ways. The Prius tax credits ended at a certain number of sold cars. If the Volt tax credits end because they reach a certain number of sold cars, then your statement backfires.
     
  13. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    They are not the same. The purpose of the tax-credit for Prius was to push it further into the mainstream. It had already reached high-volume. That most definitely is not the case for Volt. Neither is the credit value, which is double. Neither is the credit quantity, which is over triple.
     
  14. cycledrum

    cycledrum PSOCSOASP

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    Ah man, you poor guy. Leaf, Volt and Model S (?)

    Yeah, and then we went into the Great Recession courtesy of Dubya, Cheney, Rummy and Wolfy.
    Good times .... Not
     
    #254 cycledrum, Mar 29, 2015
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  15. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    And a tax deduction before that, and MITI subsidies for the first generation from the beginning in Japan, and then other incentives within its home country that lasted longer than they did in the US.
    What exactly does that mean by competitive against mainstream vehicles? The three Prii compete in the small and midsize arenas. The top five sellers in each of those sell over 220k a year each. I guess the Prius could be called competitive against the them at the 122k it did last year. I wouldn't say the same about the c and v with 40k and 30k.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Zythryn started a thread about coming to an understanding on what mainstream sales mean. What is your definition of high volume sales? | PriusChat
    Then why the pressure for the first generation of the Volt to do it? The first generation Prius sold around 90k units in Japan, and about 150k worldwide. The Volt sold over 100k up through 2014. Both have gotten help through the first and second generation. The third generation Prius also got help. As of right now, the third gen Volt won't be getting any.

    Yes, GM didn't have a 'mainstream' hybrid. Now they do, and you are going around with this 'told ya so' attitude, and that it is an admission from GM that the Volt is a failure. I don't recall anyone saying that GM shouldn't have such a hybrid here. It was just a subject you kept dragging up in every god damn Volt thread. People were sick of it, because it was something only GM could answer, and they weren't saying anything. Considering the announcement of the Malibu hybrid just came out, that it is going to debut in NY at the auto show in a week or two, and will be a 2016 model year, GM did a fine job of 'playing its cards close to the chest' on the subject.

    Why don't you go hound Toyota about the next Prius now.
     
  16. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I am reminded of a story that came out of the Soviet labor camp trying to make an atomic bomb. One of the Commissars bragged about how with great effort their uranium was enriched to a higher percentage than the Americans. Then the Soviet scientist, an inmate, points out the Americans only enriched uranium enough to make a bomb ... an easier task.
    Many phenomena exhibit an "S" shaped growth curve where it flattens at the top. My impression is EVs have reached the top. New models will give a bump but whether it is sustained or relaxes down ... well that is called 'a horse race.'
    [​IMG]
    The Leaf and Volt took a hit, "new model" effect? Otherwise, the other plug-ins and EVs look flat. Only the Sonata appears to have an interesting, one-month, jump, but too soon to call it a trend.

    Bob Wilson

    From a math definition, being at a 45 degree slope on the sales volume curve is a good threshold or boundary. As the sales go higher, the slope decreases and relative market position becomes more stable (i.e., mainstream.) Below that point, the car is a niche appealing to a smaller market. Small changes in sales rapidly change their position in the market. They are 'in the noise.'

    Bob Wilson
     
    #256 bwilson4web, Mar 30, 2015
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  17. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

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    This is such a narrow snapshot of sales, how can anything be seen other than "The Dead of Winter" dip?
     
  18. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    No, we got rid of the Volt when we realized we didn't need that nasty, carcinogenic, flammable, volatile fuel at all.

    The Leaf and Tesla are current numbers, the Volt is lifetime (although short) in our care.

    As Bill indicated, I am looking at the broader annual sales history.
    It largely eliminates the bad weather and similar noises (although not Tsunami affects).
     
    #258 Zythryn, Mar 30, 2015
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  19. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Non-crossing lines suggest the top 20 fuel efficient vehicles are with three exceptions in "The Dead of Winter" dip. Two are a little chillier, Leaf and Volt, and one had an early Spring, Sonata.

    I share John1701a's concern that our fuel efficient vehicles have hit been sitting at 3% of the total market for the past "n" years. Certainly purchase price has an effect as well as the cost of gas/diesel. But we really need to see some breakout technology, at least as far as the USA market is concerned.

    The current Prius transmission and battery is still pricey but practical. It has the simplicity of a mechanical transmission which explains the part-time, engine driven pump and no filter. If the motors can be re-stacked; minimize expensive rare earths; aluminum instead of copper stators, and more affordable Silicon-Carbide power electronics, cost is improved. Then use less, smaller traction batteries perhaps augmented by 'hopefully' less expensive ultra-caps, it might become a practical replacement in more conventional, Toyota cars ... their new, standard automatic transmission. That would be a game changer.

    As for a plug-in variant, add batteries and voila, our niche has product.

    This technology needs to break out of the 3% pond we're in. That means making it cheap enough to become non-hybrid specific. The winners will be the ones to solve the price-performance puzzle.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #259 bwilson4web, Mar 30, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2015
  20. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

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    Let's remember that technology breakthroughs in the batteries are on track. The energy per $ is set to double in the next 5 years with 200 mile EVs for $35,000 and PHEVs with better range and less weight, less space, and therefore less hybrid mpg impact of plugin capability with 20-50 mile EV range. This will naturally widen the market competitiveness and bring in more customers.
     
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