Toyota and Lexus Still Hating on Plug-Ins and EVs

the promised tesla is the promised land. hey, maybe the bolt?

 

Wow, I think you really missed the point by many miles. What makes Toyota's fuel cell so egregious is not that they fraudulently slam plugins, but that they deliberately over state how they're ready to come to market. The icing on the cake comes via the Toyota lobby. ... paying for legislation that gives highest zev credit for cars that most can't afford, on an infrastructure that is so costly even the oil industry refused to build it .... even though they would be selling the natural gas to run it. Yet Toyota et al expect our taxes/dmv fees to build it ? And if you're reading all the prior posts - that's just for starters. I guess if opposing stupidity makes someone "haters" then I guess one has to wear the label.
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You should look into an EGolf or MB B-Series Electric if refinement is what you needed.

Or another option with less plush is the Kia Soul EV.

Unfortunately, you are too late for the Honda FitEV or Rav4EV thing.

 

Alright, time to cut the mumbo jumbo .....

How many people (what percentage of plug-in driver's, BEVers, PHV, EREV) actually use public charging L2 stations, away from the home with Blink, Eco ... whatever and pay cards???

I think the Lexus commercial is sort of stupid. It shows EVs in a way they are most likely not being used: charging from zero out in timbuktu. I wouldn't even pay attention or get offended over it. Not worth it.

As for Toyota, hopefully they save face after putting that thing on the road that I'll never see (Mirai) by introducing a stunning new Prius.

 

you can do it in a phev though. the whole zipper thing.

 

Care to give us your personal account of plugging in your PiP? Is it easy to do? Worth it? Satisfying?

Keep in mind, I've never driven a plugin car except in the San Francisco ballroom.

Anyone else? Hill, whoever, whatever PHEV?

 

yes, yes and yes. i have an L2 in my garage, and charge before going out, 90 minutes. i carry the oem in the trunk to plug in at work. there's a timer in the car so you can set it to charge before driving. ev driving is wonderful. right now though, it's about break-even with gas prices for me, but i still prefer it to the engine running.

my typical driving is close by, so the pip works well for me. but i would pay for another 5-10 miles.
you can check out my and others stats in the pip forum sticky spreadsheet.

 

I saw one of the OEM cables plugged into a PiP and a receptacle in an auto shop this week. Where do you plug it into at work? What are the requirements for the receptacle, or does that matter?

I hope it's really easy to set the charge timer. Ya know, for busy people.

I'm just full of Q's

 

you've got questions, i have answers! toyota 'requires' a dedicated 120v 15 amp circuit. but i have been plugging into an outlet on the side of the building for 3 years with no problems. no idea what else is on it, but the pip doesn't pull that much juice.

 

Do you have to reset a timer each time, or just get out and plugin on both ends?

Have you ever used a commercial L2? Chargepoint? others?

 

i plug in the outlet, then the car. reset the timer? if you are changing it, yes. you can set it to charge at a certain time, or be finished charging by a certain time. it's quick and easy.

 

Hate? Simple math. To change 100kWh battery in 12 min you have to draw 500kWh. Grid won't hold up.

The only way EV can thrive if you get electric generator in every house. Most home generators are a lot smaller, under 10-20kW. That would need 25-50 houses to charge 1 EV. And then it still not realistic, mains are 240V/100A, 24kWh. Guess how long it will take to change 100kWh battery without upgrading 24kWh main?

 

Let's not over think this problem. When adding a service, the buyer provides the specifications to the seller. There are terms and conditions and the utility has instrumentation and can manage the interface to charger. An EV charger is one of the more easily managed and removable loads by the utility company. In some areas, a lower rate is available when the utility company has the option of controlling it. If the spare capacity is there, what harm in using it?

Bob Wilson

 

But wouldn't that mean the existing Tesla Supercharger stations should be taking down the grid right now. Or do they have limitations of how many Tesla's can be charging at one time?

 

I don't think Toyota Japan is voicing hate (Toyota USA I am not sure about). I think Toyota are giving some realistic fundamental concerns, especially for the Japan situation. But it does not play well (politically incorrect) in USA because Congress has adopted as national policy to try to make EV/Plug_ins work as a practical option. In USA, we are affluent enough ($ and energy assets) to pursue greater electrifcation if we so choose. Personally I am not a huge advocate. But I am just a pawn in the game of cars, as Mongo once said.

 

This is what the fuel cell lobby wants you to think. That the grid is fragile, that all cars need to fill up fast. Say you drive 50 miles @100 mpge in your 200 mile range plug-in (tesla's 240 mile sports sedan gets 101). You need to put 17 kwh into that car, do you need to do it in a minute? Or maybe you can do it over 3 hours at night? All you need is a 6.6 kw L2 charger, tesla's standard is 10kw, and you can buy a 20kw duel. Forget to charge and the next day you drive 70 miles (still have 80 miles left), you still just need 7.5 hours on a 6.6 kw charger at night to fully recharge.

Public chargers sure, maybe we will quadruple the charge rate and get to 500 kw chargers. And sure maybe we will get people that want to charge 100 kwh in 12 minutes. That is all reasonable. will it break the grid? Not at all. The ERCOT grid deals with over 11 GW of wind cycling on and off and inbetween and it deals with it easily. That is a harder problem than 22,000 of these quick chargers that are peaking at 500 kw. The most stressed regional grid in the US will be california. One 500 MW ccgt plant can easily provide the power to 1000 of these 500kw spots, and the cost is about $700M in california (less in texas or florida with more streamlined regulations). The cost of the powerplant is included in cost of power sold to the charging station. If only 10% of the power comes from these spots the average car will only charge 500 kwh a year, 5 million plug-ins in california would use 2500 GWH which is a tiny number for that grid to manage . Batteries can easily buffer this power for charging. Tesla is adding solar instead of natural gas, so the grid operators do need to make sure there is enough natural gas to satisfy demand early in the morning.

Would it break the grid in Japan, that grid is already broken.

+1

Toyota has said they are working with congress (translation actively lobbying) to get more US money for fuel cell vehicles and hydrogen stations. These are not legitimate concerns even in Japan. Toyota was part of the group that pushed 50kw chargers there, and now they think every car needs 500kw? One of the points honda and toyota have used to get such high japanese government money is they will be able to export the fuel cell cars to the US.

This is the lowest form of politics. Actively lying to move forward your political agenda. It doesn't play well because it shouldn't. The politics though often work for these big corporations and they get hundreds of millions more of taxpayer dollars. That is why they do it, and why we should correct the bad assumptions. The goal here is to slow adoption of plug-ins. If plug-in adoption rates continue to grow as they have, then there is no reason for taxpayers to spend the hundreds of billions it would take to build hydrogen infrastructure in the US. Plug-ins and the internet sales model hurt the dealership model which is why car companies put out this fud.

 

I was reading about fuel cell vehicles and hydrogen on Wiki. Ok. It all sounds like a poor idea now. A litany of problems with producing H2, storage, distribution. Fuel cells are very expensive. Maybe someday it could be better.

Someone mentioned how an eGolf could be a cool car to try. There's a dude on Relayrides renting his very new eGolf for $79 / day (plus you betterf pay 50% extra for the insurance cause yours won't cover it). He states it's for local driving only, test drives and such. I might be a tad nervous doing our loop to Pacifica, Montara LH and Half Moon Bay. That might fit into 75 miles. Takes planning. Nice car like that, you want to get out and go.

 

They are likely connected directly to 50-100kV grid

I drive ~8-900mi a week, ~160mi in one some days. So it would need to be on for 9-10hr every night? 6.6kw charger would not work. 10kw maybe, but the cost of electricity here high; gas would have to gain another 20-30% to make it even with EV. And it would be fun to hook it up at 11:30pm, when it is cold or raining. BTW will Tesla even get 160mi in the winter?

So you are saying H2 is a pipedream pushed by fuel cell lobby? no disagreement here. We are on the same page as long as you agree that EV is equal (but different) pipedream.

 

Ah c'mon cyclo. You must remember the Broder thing, DC to Boston (almost)
I'm sure the 85 goes 200 in 20 F.

Lots of peeps enjoying their EVs. No pipe dream.

 

First I would say that a bev is probably not for you. A fuel cell vehicle would definitely not be for you. A tesla could work, but its not a good fit today. If a prius fits your needs you probably can't do much better. You are in a group of less than 1% of drivers.

Future tesla 3 may get 100 mpge and 400 mile range maybe in 8 years. That would be a better fit. The 135 kw tesla supercharger network could still work for your trips. You would likely have to wait 50 minutes to get an 80% charge. At home the current 20kw tesla dual chargers would work, but would need a 220V, 100 Amp line. No technical breakthrough are needed for this scenario. The big problem is this still will be expensive. Plug-ins even 10 years from now won't be appropriate for 60% of the population, but 40% will be the target. They need to get past this initial adopter phase, to the early majority.

How far will a tesla go in the winter? It depends on your speed and temperature. The epa rated 270 mile model S 85d will go 224 miles at 0 degrees and 70 mph and the heat on. The 70D will go 199 miles. You can use this tool but it only goes down to 0 degrees.
Your Questions Answered | Tesla Motors

Technology for plug-ins are at the commercial stage. Fuel cells need many breakthroughs to get here. You can buy a volt or other phev or tesla today and drive it across the country. At the end of the year you may be able to buy a fcv in a few zip codes, and you will only be able to drive it in small parts of california, and possibly make it inside the border of nevada.