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Gen II Prius Individual Battery Module Replacement

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Technical Discussion' started by ryousideways, Apr 24, 2013.

  1. aqinas

    aqinas Junior Member

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    Many thanks for explaining this John.

    This now makes sense as I have reviewed the historic data outputs from tech stream and the SOC was 55% even with the voltage in low 15.xx volts on all blocks.

    I drove a further 40km this evening and still the HV pack seems good. I have a 2000km drive in a few weeks time and this will be a good test for the HV pack.

    Aqib

    My first thought was that since all modules were parallel equalised and were exactly all 16v the ECU was expecting a small delta in the voltage between the blocks and hence threw the code.

    But the above is a guess at best.
     
    #781 aqinas, Apr 9, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 9, 2015
  2. Britprius

    Britprius Senior Member

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    The discrepancy could be accounted for because the ECU does coulomb counting to track the state of charge, and cross references this with voltage for correction purposes. So readings taken when the battery was removed could influence initial calculations when the refurbished battery with a different charge level was fitted.
    Unfortunately much of this will remain conjecture in the absence of Toyota information.

    John (Britprius)
     
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  3. kiwi

    kiwi Member

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    That graph from you as above is what one would call theoretical/ ideal rather than practical (SOC scale is of no use). Good for understanding what one should aim at.

    You realise that SOC on your graph is non-specific abstract scale and has nothing to do with SOC (as seen by Techstream in Prius).

    When you do testing with RC cycle charger/balancer at low currents (e.g. 1 A) - you can't see the right picture - i.e. behaviour under higher load, and what's more important usable remaining capacity in the range above 7V (Voltage drops to around 7v when MTG starts driving around 60 Amps). Needless to say that you only should consider usable remaining capacity where delta V is below 0.5V between pairs in the range above 7V.

    Hence when you have tested all your old modules with your RC charger/balancer and looked at the numbers on yor RC device at the end of the test and full of joy that modules still have some "capacity", you may not realise that what you've got is nothing but pile of rubbish and not usable modules.

    Please have a look at the test result below (capacity looks not bad at all, but....) and think again about your methodology....

    Attached are 2 test results (out of 120). Tests conducted on 120 modules as a courtesy to the garage, supporting our project. Those modules were used in first ever Prius (1997-2000). Those have not been sold in USA and perhaps you still have few imports in UK.

    MOP: Charged modules in bulk (still assembled in a pack) with High Voltage Charger (+6AH @1.5A), then after two day rest - discharged @ 6Amp down to 6V (electronic load, easy to do in a few minutes, I've mentioned that earlier):

    1B06.jpg 1A03.jpg
     
    #783 kiwi, Apr 14, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2015
  4. James Kreibick

    James Kreibick New Member

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    I am looking to purchase 10 Gen II Prius battery modules. I was looking around online, and most of what I found was either full size packs, or from people selling on ebay. I am not in the market for a full size pack, only modules. I am a little hesitate on purchasing on ebay because I can never get a great answer on capacity of the modules. I am concerned the modules may not be healthy, and will drag my overall pack down. Any suggestions on good places to purchase from?
     
  5. aqinas

    aqinas Junior Member

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    I don't like the smell of what you are cooking, smells fishy..
     
  6. Britprius

    Britprius Senior Member

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    Hi James, and welcome to PC.
    A guaranteed source of good modules is difficult to find. However PC member "Jdenenberg" did have modules for sale in good refurbished condition. He is also a well respected member here on PC. I suggest you private message him to see if he has any left.

    If you are not in a great hurry and you have modules that are low on capacity, but otherwise ok I am experimenting with re-hydrating modules. This can bring back modules close to original specifications with little effort or expense. I expect to release my findings in the next 2 to three weeks.

    John (Britprius)
     
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  7. kiwi

    kiwi Member

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    - Agree. Dodgy dealers are riding on people's ignorance and selling "cat in a sack" for unreasonable price ..... (some of those could be really good , some - complete rubbish). If they reveal the data (of course if they have it) and be consistent in approach for all their tests (sample MOP: DSCH to 6V -> IDLE one week -> CHRG +6.5AH -> IDLE one week -> DSCH @ 6A to 6V -> CHRG 6.5AH for storage) - they would make more money - as people would not hesitate, I guess.... Safety of airmail postage of those modules is another topic...
    - I remember being criticised when allowed myself to express doubts of abovementioned fellow forum member getting reliable results - e.g. >6.5AH. I have attributed those to improper testing procedure (e.g. low discharge current and not enough time between charge and discharge tests..Hopefully he has improved his MOP since.. that is what the forum for....)
    - The best outcome the world history knows about de-hydrating /re-hydrating was when they invented "Port"...(alcohol)...
    John, you may consider home brewery instead :) better ROI by all means and the outcome you can really feel ....

    - Below couple of screenshots (I've removed ID's) from the auction - that boy is selling 15 year old modules for $90 NZD (~$69USD) repeating idiotic refrain echoing through auctions/forums around the world, quote: "normally there are two or three, which needs to be replaced" - Really?! Are you crazy? How about normally there anything in between 3 to all of them?? (the fact those modules are 15 year old and those Priuses have ALL modules in a very bad condition - just strengthen my point). That idiot has absolutely no idea a) how to test b) what the real test looks like c) what "capacity" means. He uses voltmeter and a bulb - how cool is that? Perhaps sand powered egg watch is used as well :(

    Many if not all eBay dealers of second hand modules are not far away in their approach/knowledge/attitude . Just making a statement, none came back to me saying anything meaningful yet...
    Battery NHW-10 Auction 1.JPG Battery NHW-10 Auction 3.JPG
     
    #787 kiwi, Apr 16, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2015
  8. goitalone

    goitalone Member

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    Would I be okay simply charging the one cell that I purchased from eBay close to the other modules or do I have to do all this complicated stuff? Also need to know what kind of charger I need to charge just one cell
     
  9. goitalone

    goitalone Member

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    Assuming that there's only one weak cell I mean
     
  10. Britprius

    Britprius Senior Member

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    The reliability of replacing one module (6 cells) is dubious, and you are likely to end up playing whack a mole, but it can be done.


    John (Britprius)
     
  11. ericbecky

    ericbecky Hybrid Battery Hero

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    It depends on how long you want it to last. If 30 to 90 days is fine with you, you might be o.k.
    After this initial replacement, you can plan on going back in and doing it again...and again... and again as needed.
    It can be a fun hobby. Continue in this fashion until you aren't having fun any more.

    I have some remaining modules for sale. I usually sell them in sets of 2, since it saves you a bit on shipping since you will likely need another in the future.
     
  12. goitalone

    goitalone Member

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    Thanks playing whack-a-mole is about all I can do right now unfortunately. so what kind of charger do I need?
     
  13. ericbecky

    ericbecky Hybrid Battery Hero

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    If you aren't going to go through the whole process of balancing, etc, just have some modules shipped to you in a slightly higher voltage than what yours are at and be done with it. It ain't pretty, and it isn't the best way to go, but it may work for you.
    Feel free to call and chat.
     
  14. breakindrifts

    breakindrifts New Member

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    Anyone have a healthy gen2 module for sale? I trust you guys more than random ebay sellers.
     
  15. ericbecky

    ericbecky Hybrid Battery Hero

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    Yep. Contact me directly at [email protected]
     
  16. goitalone

    goitalone Member

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    Anyone know anyone on PC who would be willing to rebuild my pack properly for a decent price?
     
  17. goitalone

    goitalone Member

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    And what is the chance of electrocution
    after unplugging orange service plug?
     
  18. strawbrad

    strawbrad http://minnesotahybridbatteries.com

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    High voltage is present until all the buss bars are removed from one side of the battery. Toyota designed many safety features that make it difficult but not impossible to hurt yourself. No one should take a battery apart unless they thoroughly understand the battery.

    Brad
     
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  19. kiwi

    kiwi Member

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    Good question. Depends. One "hybrid" garage from Sacramento was under impression that there is maximum 7.2 Volts when the orange plug is out. Came to them as a revelation when I advised that in fact it is not :) They did not beleive me. Took Skype camera to show them on the real battery.
    Be aware of this:

    a) It is common belief that heart failure may happen when you are exposed to voltages above 50V

    b) Some DIY-ers suggest to "touch with one hand" and you'll be fine. Not entirely true if you are touching the battery. Still can be dangerous as concrete is conductive and while you are standing on it and if there is no insulation between metal battery casing and the concrete floor - you could be in trouble. Why? Because if modules leaked (when it happens - it might not be obvious) there will be potential between metal casing and the battery string (I've seen anything up to 84 volts). Test potential between random battery and the casing and between random battery and concrete floor by voltmeter.

    c) Not advisable to use non-insulated t-shape wrench (socket) to disconnect bus bars. You can shortcut up to 6 modules (depends on the tool) may cause spectacular fireworks and electrical shock at the same time (double-trouble).

    d) Electrical gloves (class 0 or 00) – is must have PPE
     
    #799 kiwi, May 3, 2015
    Last edited: May 3, 2015
  20. goitalone

    goitalone Member

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    Where can I buy lowest price class 00 1000v protection gloves locally?

    I found a used battery at 97k for $900 at a junk yard 38 miles away from me... maybe that would be best bet.. then I could buy gloves later and open my old battery and sell my old cells on ebay?