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Key Challenges for Toyota

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by bwilson4web, May 3, 2015.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    This opinion piece from Japan Technology Report has an excellent description of the problems. But some parts bother me.

    Source: Three Key Challenges for Toyota : Standardization, Electrification, and the China Market - Japan Technology Report - Nikkei Technology Online


    Part 2: Part standardization
    Boosting Development and Production Efficiency with TNGA Toyota has long protected its chief engineer system, assigning them complete authority for development projects. This approach has enjoyed considerable success, making it possible to develop smaller, lighter parts for each model, enlarge cabins, and improve fuel economy. As the number of models increases, though, so does the number of parts, and now the company has little choice but to review and revamp its entire development stance. TNGA—Toyota New Global Architecture—is designed to do just that, addressing a variety of issues such as cutting costs, boosting marketability, and assuring quality.
    This bothers me because I have seen the quality and performance improvement of each Prius generation. The wiper encoders and first generation NiMH prismatic battery modules were replaced by Hall-effect and superior modules. We also saw voltage doubling and tripling that led to smaller, lighter, and more powerful motors. "Standardization" can be the enemy of innovation and efficiency.

    There are obvious reasons to standardize common parts but too often that boundary can be defined by non-technical accountants. They save a penny but stifle innovation which is a fair criticism about why GM and Chrysler went broke. Their products lost customers because accountants lack technical imagination.

    Light aviation suffers the same problem with reliance on out of date technology: magnetos, air-cooled, carb engines. Aerodynamics that seldom show more than a 2x ratio of stall to cruise or top speed.

    Part 3: The outlook for next-gen HEVs
    Approaching 40 km/L fuel economy in 2020 Abstract: The Prius, the acclaimed forerunner in hybrid electric vehicles, is faltering as a host of engine vehicles offer fuel economy surpassing it. The next-generation Prius is planned to achieve significantly better mileage, with smaller motors and batteries. Over the medium and long term, a high-efficiency power control unit will be developed, and it seems likely fuel economy will hit 40 km/L by 2020.

    The performance sounds attractive but if the next Prius has worse City to Highway performance, they've lost it. This is the risk of seeing efficiency as a single number, say Highway. Before Prius, I compared the Honda IMA vs Prius NHW11. Both cars were neck and neck until I notice the Prius City MPG was (is) greater than Highway in contrast to the Honda IMA that looked like a more efficient diesel. This Prius advantage meant urban driving more efficiently managed inertial and low-speed performance, a key metric showing the car was matching fuel consumption to the real load.

    The article goes on to give Toyota high praise for recovery from the global economic collapse, growth, and profitability. So it begs the question: If it ain't broke, what are you fixing?? The very thing that led to your success?

    Bob Wilson
     
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  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    which engine vehicles surpass prius mpg?(n)
     
  3. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    Bob, I did an extended drive in our previous 06 Civic Hybrid yesterday. What I found maddening was the touchy throttle, coupled with refusal to coast: as soon as you lift off the gas an aggressive amount of regen starts slowing it down. Maybe it's been increased with the last software patch, not sure. But geesh what a step down in terms of driving feel, very clunky.

    I'm rambling and off-topic, just had to share.

    The Prius is using a Corolla engine, with some mods, is it not? That's one example of common parts.
     
    #3 Mendel Leisk, May 3, 2015
    Last edited: May 3, 2015
  4. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    This remains a gray area of how much change is allowed by the Chief Engineer on a new car. It is a delicate balance but I am sure accountants are the wrong deciders.

    As a network engineer, I always enjoyed working 'tail sites', the leafs surrounding every NASA center because they offered unique requirements that led to innovative solutions. In contrast, the main, backbone networks were always . . . boring. For example, a network triangle I implemented:
    • A-B and B-C legs 45 mbs
    • A-C leg - 90 mbs
    • load-sharing A-C so it added the 45 and 90 mbs when the traffic peaks occurred
    • fail-over so any lost leg continued operation at a lower, effective bandwidth
    • mix 'secure' versus 'open' traffic
    • mix real-time 'voice' traffic with data
    In our standard design rules, there would be no "load-sharing" or mixing 'secure' and 'open' traffic over the same wires. So I pioneered some new techniques including how to bundle multiple slow-speed lines to achieve maximum bandwidth. Yet the 'voice' traffic got through without being impacted by the bulk data transfers. In effect, having your cake and eating it too!

    I could do this because a tail site is allowed to explore innovative technologies like the "i3". Small numbers, yes, but every advanced technology applied to make the total greater than the parts. But our backbone networks are stuck in older design rules. <GRUMBLE>

    No, I think Toyota risks killing the goose that has been laying golden eggs. The article clearly points out Toyota has succeeded better than their competition but now they are trying a new heuristic that reminds me of the GM 'cost cutting' design approach that drove GM into the ditch.

    Bob Wilson
     
  5. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    is the hev the pip or lift back?

    if they think toyota suffered during the meltdown, they should look at the competition.

    new models for 2014? how old is this?
     
    #5 bisco, May 3, 2015
    Last edited: May 3, 2015
  6. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    HEV is hybrid electric vehicle, so the liftback. It gets used in some circles to distinguish it from a hydraulic, or something else, hybrid.
     
  7. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    thanks, that was confusing.o_O
     
  8. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    I wonder if the centered-on-the-dash instrument panel is one example of their common parts: suitable for both left and right hand drive vehicles. That's hands-down the most maddening design decision in the Prius, for me. The Echo (for one) had the same setup.
     
  9. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

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    And then they carried it over to the c and v. I'm thinking it was just so the interior would remind you you were in a different/distinctive car.
     
  10. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    So did the Echo based Scions.
    Even though it was a center display, it may not of been centered enough for the dash to work for both left and right drive market cars.
     
  11. Former Member 68813

    Former Member 68813 Senior Member

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    it takes some time to get used to, but after that it's actually more ergonomic. 3 of 4 cars in my household have the center panel: prius, yaris, and saturn.
     
  12. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    There's a whole section in TPTSTW about that (pp. 134–138 in the English edition). Their ergonomics department had known for years that a central, farther-from-the-eyes location would be better in terms of eye refocusing effort than the traditional spot right in front of the steering wheel, but the cars they were building weren't shaped to allow that location. When the Gen 0 body design ended up with the base of the windshield so far forward, Masanori Sawa realized "if we can't install this on Prius, it would be totally impossible on any other car." (p. 137).

    I have to confirm, where the meter is located in my Gen 1, well over an arm's length away, I can read it easily even without my old-guy glasses. My ScanGauge II, sitting above the steering column where traditional gauges would be, not so much. I can read it, but only with longer glances.

    In your case, perhaps you are young enough that your eyes still have flexible lenses and can shift focus between the road and gauges right in front of the wheel, and even though that happens without your conscious awareness, it's still the kind of thing ergonomics teams can measure.

    I don't think it has very much to do with saving part count between left and right drive cars. There are a lot of things asymmetrical about the instrument panel. Pages 139–140 cover how they noticed that with the center finish panel actually centered, the air flow from the panel vent wasn't comfortable, and they ended up doing extra checks on the interior design to see if people would object to having the whole center finish panel located 30 mm off center. The tests revealed that nobody noticed. (And sure enough, I, who had never noticed, went out to my car and said "well ... so it is!" ... you can tell if you compare it to the exhaust tunnel in the floor). And that's 30mm left of center in a right drive Gen 1, 30mm right in a left drive. So they were paying attention to a lot of design objectives besides just centering things to cut part counts.

    -Chap
     
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  13. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The gen2 managed the farther from the eyes without putting the display in the center.
     
  14. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    I wonder if their ergo team remained convinced of their results re: center position, but they had some early responses to Gen 1 that suggested people needed more time to get used to it. They seem to have made other decisions along similar lines. For Gen 1, apparently they didn't think people would be ready to start without turning a key, or shift without a big lever that goes kerchunk (even though it's nothing but an electronic input). For Gen 2 they must have figured people were ready for a pushbutton start, and a twiddle stick on the dash for a shifter ... then I notice for Gen 3 they kept it a twiddle stick, but moved it closer to where people expect a shifter (and even went back to something that looks like a shifter for the c, which they expect to market to people who are newest to Prius).

    It's interesting what they did with the gauges for Gen 2, because they sort of stood their ground on the center meter idea with a very centered-looking meter window area, but at the same time they quietly conceded a little and slid the actual gauges over toward one end of it. By Gen 3 maybe they thought the market was more ready for something closer to the original idea (though even the Gen 3 gauges are still a bit toward the driver compared to the Gen 1 location). And they seem to sell boatloads of them, so maybe they were right. Personally, I like the center meters.

    Maybe it's because I've ridden in some cars where the meters seem almost designed to be secret from the passenger, so as a passenger I'd have to crane my neck sideways for any info ... and I've ridden with some drivers who inspired more than a little neck craning.

    -Chap

    cm.jpg
     
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  15. cycledrum

    cycledrum PSOCSOASP

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    Welp, I just returned a 2015 Camry Hybrid SE rental and logged 44.x MPG on gauge over 112 miles mixed, 60 something F, dry. I've been too harsh in the past evaluating the HyCam. This 2015 is the best Camry ever and with a pair of shorter legs than me, it would be a slam dunk to get and enjoy.

    Here's a bit of trivia: The great Honda got sneaky and reduced the current generation Accord front passenger legroom by 3 inches (which in legroom terms is surely noticeable). This is because the footboard is brought closer into the cabin.

    The Camry Hybrid has a trunk pass through and spare tire. The Accord Hybrid has no trunk pass through and no spare tire. Leg up Toyota.

    I jumped back in our 2005 Accord sedan 4 cyl automatic, put on the A/C and merged on the crowded freeway. The drain of the Accord's A/C on the engine power was so noticeable. Then there's the constant shifting up and down of the auto trans when speeding up / slowing a lot. The Accord felt old-fashioned.

    I'm going to rent one more car, a new Accord EX sedan. We'll see if Car and Driver's gushing over Accord is real or just due to advertising dollars, :p
     
  16. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

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    I've tried to download the document, only the 4 initial pages are available... :(
     
  17. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Like telemo, it seems to want me to pay to get to these details, but I don't think this report is saying what you see.

    Part of the magic of the toyota manufacturing system for building quality was both low part count and continuous improvement. We get a picture from akio toyoda of how this broke under watanabe in the quest for volume. I guess the prime example is the sticky pedal.

    The way the system is supposed to work is you design using the minimum number of components, then fix it fast if there are quality problems, by ideally working with the supplier, or temporarily testing and reworking in house then finding a new supplier or design. In the case of the pedals, toyota wrote a specification, and had multiple suppliers design pedals to that specification. Toyota engineering then approved the multiple designs. That was a no no in the old system, which should have picked one design and had the multiple suppliers make parts to the same design. The reason why this is superior can easily be seen by what happened next.

    After the pedals had been in the field for awhile customers in europe started reporting the faulty pedals. In europe the cars had pedals from both manufacturers. This made it much harder for toyota to analyze what was wrong. Worse, in toyota's home country there were not cars with the pedals with faulty design. This makes testing, tracking, and repair much more difficult. Toyota engineering never was forced to take ownership and pick a single design, but left the design with different suppliers. This led to denial that it was toyota's problem, and finger pointing. Now the problem was exacerbated by a drive for volume that we don't need to go into here, but low parts count, with quick changes as soon as quality problems are noticed is a core value of the toyota manufacturing system.

    The change in battery packs in the prius followed the traditional TMS process, and was part of a noticed problem and superior new technology. There is a balance between quality, low cost, and speed. TMS as it used to be traded speed of changes for low cost and quality ballance. Some of the changes are trying to put the old system back into the now much bigger company.
     
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  18. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

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    If you want the full report, you pay. You can get a few sample pages download for free and the high level summary of the 4 issues to be addressed in the white paper is on the OP's referenced web site.
     
  19. KennyGS

    KennyGS Senior Member

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    I agree wholeheartedly with you bwilson regarding accountants. I'm convinced they absolutely loath engineers, and look at them with complete disdain. Even worse is their spreadsheet picture of everything, and lack of connection with the very products that put the company where it is. When their edicts conflict with reality, they simply deny the facts that are in front of them.

    Please don't get me started. :(
     
  20. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    agreed, but otoh, without them, you wind up with gm. it's an uneasy relationship at best.