1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

California drought

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by austingreen, Jun 5, 2015.

  1. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,995
    3,507
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    I give big points to fuzzy1 just above. There are things going on now, that could be improved by deft calls to potential donors. Go after them, take their money, but do not bend over backwards to implicate +CO2. It might only reduce your cash flow.

    We are not done talking about California this year (fires). Current drought has not grown beyond paleo, assumming that those are accurate.. The current 'people-thing' in California is entirely novel though. Make the water (pricing and) supply syste work, before wondering if the next drought will be worse.

    It appears that mojo aspires to string Bob up, based on this year's arctic sea traffic. Maybe, way long in the future, we will learn here at PC that one year ain't no thang.
     
    fuzzy1 likes this.
  2. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2011
    3,292
    547
    0
    Location:
    2014 Prius c
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    II
    Well these guys seem to think that 1976 was different, and the 2013 most closely resembles 1948, but more severe (due to global warming?). Point is you cannot make an assumption that mega-droughts and current drought of the same origin, it would be like giving someone Ebola and then claiming Medieval Bubonic Plague as an evidence.
    A comparison of California's extreme 2013 dry spell to the 1976-1977 drought : California Weather Blog
     
  3. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,123
    15,389
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    I'm calm about this since the 1990s series of "100 year floods" along the Mississippi. One of the things Bill Clinton's FEMA did was to encourage those living in traditional flood plains to relocate. There comes a time when CO{2} forced global warming doesn't have to wait for a "crisis d'jour." We used to say,'Pay me now, or pay me later.'

    Bob Wilson
     
  4. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,123
    15,389
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    A good thing, mitigation isn't cheap and California is again learning the way.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #144 bwilson4web, Jun 30, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2015
  5. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,123
    15,389
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    I am amused that 'liar-liar' mojo picks up Austin's 900 year old, "megadrought" and turns the clock forward. Both are 'jumping to a conclusion' that nothing has change in the face of current facts and data.

    Sea level remains something of interest and Jason-2 has data available within 10 days, early June:
    [​IMG]
    • El Nino is clearly shown in the higher levels west of South America.
    • Along the west coast of North and South America, the water levels are again higher, what warm water does.
    • Curious upwelling of cold water east of the Philippines just a few degrees north of the El Nino.
    • That circular pattern east of South America is interesting because it was also evident in the 1990 SST.
    Bob Wilson
     
    #145 bwilson4web, Jun 30, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2015
  6. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    13,533
    4,063
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX, USA
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    Yes you need lots of data to determine how extreme the current drought is in the context of past extreme droughts. The ice cores give a picture of past ghg data and volcanic eruptions. Agree with the just of your post. We can add mechanisms for ghg to cause droughts, and in california there is simply disagreement in theory on if ghg will make it wetter or dryer. Does more rain or more evaporation win out? Everyone agrees the central valley would be much dryer without taking water from the north to irrigate, so we have an agreed mechanism to lower lakes and aquifers, with increased evaporation, but that is not ghg.

    When we look at the texas panhandle, we have agreement on mechanism. The increased rainfall from ghg warming of the ocean will happen west of the panhandle, while evaporation is increased with temperature. The 2011 drought in texas was much easier to peg as made more likely from ghg (20x according to NOAA). The panhandle is also in the area of megadroughts and this one was much shorter 3 years.
     
  7. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    13,533
    4,063
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX, USA
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    I am not sure someone would not make a case. There was a lot less sea ice and a cooler arctic and pacific ocean in 1900 than in 1976. You can't make the case as the affinity sites often do with a tiny fraction of the data.

    Cook theorizes in a 2013 paper, that the warmer pacific in the MCA(medieval climate anomaly aka warm period) contributed to the southwest regional megadroughts that include southern california and the central valley. There is not enough data to accept or reject this hypothesis, but paleo reconstructions have a warmer pacific in the MWP than around 1900, but it is thought to be warmer today. The ghg question is different though as those pacific temperatures in the MWP versus LIA had nothing to do with human burned fossil fuel based ghg.
     
  8. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    13,533
    4,063
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX, USA
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    ++++

    Agree absolutely.


    Not only that but a purity test may reduce your ability to see solutions and understand the science.

    To me these fires and water levels are part of the droughts severity, and scientifically it would be great if we could agree on a better measure than PDSI. Go to a good ranger walk in a national park in california and you learn that fire suppression went to far in the past, and some of nature needs fire. FIre suppression that stops it all or too much fire causes imbalances. I don't think much suffering on the part of people or agriculture happened during this drought, but nature took a big hit (people take 10%, agriculture 50%, and nature 50% in most years, but during drought much of natures water was pumped to agriculture. It seems like some pretty easy solutions, but the small number of big ag producers have a lot of political influence.

    +1
    Yes if we are talking drought 1 year is nothing, and really for southwest droughts 3 years are short (50% of droughts lasting 3 years or more last 4 years or more. Affinity sites love focusing on single years as it is easy to find examples for everything. When they are found wrong the next year they just find a new unscientific example.
     
    fuzzy1 likes this.
  9. FL_Prius_Driver

    FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2007
    4,319
    1,527
    0
    Location:
    Tampa Bay
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    I
    It's like a crew of forest firefighters being consumed while they argue over whether it was lighting or an arsonist who started the fire.

    One surprise I found out today might explain why Florida has better water management than the average state. It is legally prohibited for each (of the five) Florida water management districts to supply water to another district. Each district was created with the responsibility of being sustainable. Each district then regulates the various municipalities in their districts on how much water they are limited in taking from the aquifer and rivers. Need more water than that, then start making desal plants or make the water you have go farther. Amazingly, each municipality is forced to figure out how to make their water allocation stay within district limits. I was further surprised to find out that Clearwater has since built two successive and successful Reverse Osmosis plants to supply the cities needs. Also Tarpon Springs, Dunedin and Oldsmar have built their own RO desal facilities. Wow. The water management system looks like it actually works
     
    #149 FL_Prius_Driver, Jun 30, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2015
    fuzzy1 and bwilson4web like this.
  10. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,123
    15,389
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Well put:
    There is a technical part of climate change based upon the facts and data. As I've gotten more exposure, I come up with my own areas of interest and that is how science and technology works. But we also have to deal with those who like some high-school students never really understood what is going on. Too often their volume was inversely proportional to their technical skills . . . so we have to live with the noise.

    A while back, I asked 'how long is a climate' versus weather and I remember the number '30 years' being offered. So let's play a numerology game:
    • 2015 - 1850 ~= 165 years of temperature and modern weather measurements
    • 2015 - 1890 ~= 105 years since the first greenhouse warming model proposed
    • 2015 - 1965 ~= 50 years of satellite observations, world wide
    • 2012 - 2015 ~= 3 years of current, regional, California drought, ~10% of a climate interval
    So I'm sanguine about what is going on yet mean enough to toy with the deniers.

    Bob Wilson
     
  11. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,123
    15,389
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    This is certainly good news!
    Arctic sailings have been going on for a while with recent traffic records at: NSR - Transit Statistics | Northern Sea Route Information Office
    • 2011 - 41 passages
    • 2012 - 46 passages, 1,261,545 tons cargo
    • 2013 - 71 passages, 1,355,897 tons cargo
    • 2014 - 52 passages
    So have you stopped trying to 'brainwash' and 'admit you are wrong' since 2011?

    Facts and data are not your friends 'liar-liar' mojo. Nor apparently is logic.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #151 bwilson4web, Jul 1, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2015
  12. FL_Prius_Driver

    FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2007
    4,319
    1,527
    0
    Location:
    Tampa Bay
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    I
    When you mix the worthwhile efforts to understand climate interactions while simultaneously shadow boxing with "deniers" it becomes problematic. Considering your POV as being purely "scientific" is compromised by the desire to poke a stick at those disagreeing. You do not need to worry about the denialist. They will win a couple of legislative victories here and there but will eventually become "noise" from a historical viewpoint. The real educational problem is not "educating" deniers but educating the 30% of the population that determines the future as policy makers, environmental experts, economics experts, and wise citizens.
     
    cyclopathic and austingreen like this.
  13. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2011
    3,292
    547
    0
    Location:
    2014 Prius c
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    II
    From what I found to read there are multiple weather patterns associated with SW droughts. Some of them influenced more by GHG than others and the value of knowing there was a drought w/o actually knowing what caused it isn't very helpful.

    With respect to is it going to get wetter or drier this is skewed by temperatures. Warmer air can hold much more moisture, and Antartica is alot drier than Sahara in that sense.
     
  14. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,123
    15,389
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    While looking for something else, I came across:

    Climate Program Office > Climate Programs > Modeling Analysis Predictions and Projections > MAPP Task Forces > Drought Task Force > California Drought


    California statewide precipitation during the last three winters (November-April 2011/2012 through 2013/2014) ranked the second lowest since official measurements began in 1895. Only the consecutive three-year period of 1974/1975 through 1976/1977 was drier. As one critical indication of the cumulative and growing impact of this drought, the September 2014 assessment of statewide water storage was only about 50% of average for this time of year, according to the California Department of Water Resources. Water supply depletion has not resulted from the lack of precipitation alone, but also from very high temperatures with the 2013/2014 winter being the state’s warmest on record.
    . . .

    What factors caused the California Drought?
    • Weather conditions were key to explaining the event - a high pressure ridge off the West Coast diverted the track of storms during all three winters, typical of historical droughts.
    • West Coast high pressure was rendered more likely during 2011-14 by effects of sea surface temperature patterns over the world oceans.
    • The drought's first year (2011/2012) was likely the most predictable, when La Nina effects largely explained high pressure off the West Coast, though simulations indicate that high pressure continued to be favored due to ocean effects in 2012-14.
    There is a 42 page full report, summary, and FAQ with enough for everyone. "Natural climate variability" shows up as well as "human-induced climate change":

    1. What are the main findings in this report?

    The severe drought in California over the last 3 years (2011-14) is primarily due to natural climate variability, key features of which appear to be predictable from knowledge of how California precipitation reacts to tropical ocean temperatures. There has been no long-term trend in California precipitation; however, California temperatures have been rising and record high temperatures during the drought were likely made more extreme due to human-induced climate change.

    The only thing that seems more hopeful than empirical are the expectations the current El Nino will bring back the winter rains. Yet the current, relatively warmer coastal waters weren't really addressed. Looks like we're in for some 'reality training.'

    Bob Wilson
     
    #154 bwilson4web, Jul 3, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2015
  15. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    13,533
    4,063
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX, USA
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    Without good models it is difficult to know exactly whether ghg makes southwest droughts more or less likely. There are many theories that go into these models. In california major theories have it that ghg should make it wetter than without the ghg.

    That leaves us with gathering data to build better models. Here we can ask did something happen more at dryer times or less. In terms of California, most theories point to pacific weather patterns influencing California's weather.

    California was dryer than in the misdeal warm period(MWP) than in the Little ice age, and the pacific was warmer during the misdeal warm period than during the little ice age, but it is thought warmer today than in the MWP. ENSO was as strong then as it is now.

    OK theory one.
    State Rep Suggests Abortion Is To Blame For California Drought

    Data seems to be against this. If today's droughts were the worst you couldn't disprove, but they were worse During the mideval warm period there weren't any abortions, and yet is was dryer. Like most political hacks people should just be able to tell that the science goes against this, but....those that agree with her politically may simply wish to parot the bad theory.

    What about ghg, they certainly existed in the MWP, but they were much lower than today and human caused ghg were much much lower. The Ocean was warmer than it was in the LIA though. I guess if you believe that the earth would not have recovered from the LIA without ghg then that would support them influencing this drought, but though scientists don't agree to the causes of the little ice age they think it was something temporary (volcanic eruptions, lower solar radiation in some spectrum), so science is points against that theory. we don't even know if the average temperature of the pacific has anything to do with these weather patterns. Evidence points to human ghg influencing the 2011-2014 drought in texas, but not the current drought in california, but the texas drought could have been natural and this one might be influenced by ghg.

    Yep that is why some of these simplistic models just don't work.
     
  16. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2011
    3,292
    547
    0
    Location:
    2014 Prius c
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    II
    Bob's post #154 pretty much covers how ghg made this drought more severe, and wetter at the same time. Additional evaporation due to warmer winter temperatures, earlier snow melt worsened the water shortage. At the same time, the amount of atmospheric moisture had increased. The increase in temperature from 10C to 12C will increase air moisture carrying capacity by 13%: READY Tools - Moisture Calculator

    Many high passes have been opened month earlier then in pre-drought years. Here is information on Tioga pass open dates and snow pack: Tioga and Glacier Point Roads Opening & Closing Dates - Yosemite National Park (U.S. National Park Service)
     
  17. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2012
    2,447
    1,695
    0
    Location:
    Rocklin, CA
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    ----USA----
    fuzzy1 and bwilson4web like this.