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How long is 'a climate'?

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by bwilson4web, Jan 18, 2014.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    In Oklahoma we used to say,'If you don't like the weather, wait an hour, it will change.' So Oklahoma weather is measured in 'an hour.' But this begs the question: How long is a climate?

    In the 1930s, Oklahoma and major parts of the midwest were called 'the dust bowl.' I remember at least one Oklahoma dust storm in the 1950s. But agriculture improved and now there are so many farm ponds it gets pretty humid in the summer.

    So what defines the time boundaries when we declare some interval of accumulated weather history 'a climate'? A decade? Twenty years? Fifty years? A century?

    Bob Wilson
     
  2. wxman

    wxman Active Member

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    The "normal" max/min temps and daily precip used by the National Weather Service and what you see on your local weather station is based on a 30-year rolling average of the temps and precip. For example, the current "normal" temps for Huntsville, AL, are based on the average of max/min temps for each date from the period 1980-2010. This rolling average is updated every 10 years, i.e., next period will be based on 1990-2020 starting in the year 2021.

    So from the NWS perspective, "climate" is defined as 30 years. That's really quite arbitrary though.
     
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  3. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

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    I take a really long term view of what a climate is. Paleoclimatology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    So lets try to find the minimum duration of a climate.

    Little Ice Age, from about 1350 to about 1850 Little Ice Age - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Medieval Warm Period, lasting from about AD 950 to 1250 Medieval Warm Period - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Neither of these are 'global' but I am not sure we need the term global, these certainly affected multiple continents. Climates changed.

    So if we need more than 300 to 500 years to detect a climate, we will miss actual climates. So Nyquist samples of 100 to 150 years should be enough to know we HAD a climate change. Nyquist–Shannon sampling theorem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  4. dbcassidy

    dbcassidy Toyota Hybrid Nation, 8 Million Strong

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    Eternal, always there until the human population ceases to exist on this planet.

    DBCassidy
     
  5. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I like 30 years for anything within current human life-span. The 10 year, moving window is OK since that also coincides with the census. But dealing with older records . . .

    I'm partial instrumented versus non-instrumented as one divide. During the instrumented era, use 30 year averages using the middle year, which always ends in a "5" for a climate data point.

    The next era would be recorded history but then we have to rely on proxies. Here it makes sense to use something generational, say a century. Again, use the "50" as the least significant year digits to charactrerize that climate data point.

    Then comes the pre-history that is totally based upon proxy records. Since it spans such a huge time interval, a log scale makes sense. Inititally 1,000 year but soon going to 10k, 100k, and 1,000k as the upper limit. Again, I'm partial to using "5" as the least precision digit to mark the midpoint of the climate record.

    Why is this important?

    We have a 'framing' problem that allows taking one data point and blowing it out of proportion. But if we can constain the time-scale to reasonable, well defined intervals, citing specific "weather" events gets rolled into a climate scale that allows understanding of the phenomena. Without a ruler, we just bounce off the rails.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  6. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Up here, it's also a 30 year rolling average.

    Note that several factors come into play. The data in use must be from the same station with the same climate ID. If a new station is installed at the same place and is assigned a new number, the old data is no longer "valid" for the purposes of comparison. You'll have to start a new set of data with the new station.

    In addition, some stations may retain the ID but may have been moved around the airport throughout the years. A few metres or 10s of metres may not matter but sometimes they can (proximity to planes, altitude difference, local wind or temperature effects and so on).
     
  7. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    "Climate" has a definition: Trewartha climate classification - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Group A: Tropical climates
    Group B: Dry (arid and semi-arid) climates
    Group C: Subtropical climates
    Group D: Temperate and continental climates
    Group E: Boreal climates
    Group F: Polar climates
    Group H: Highland climates

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    For our species, the challenge is mapping the boundaries between the different climates. As climate changes, migrations are likely.

    Then there is map:
    [​IMG]
    Source: Atmosphere | Free Full-Text | Assessing the Transferability of the Regional Climate Model REMO to Different COordinated Regional Climate Downscaling EXperiment (CORDEX) Regions | HTML

    A set of PowerPoint charts discussing how climates are classified: Chapter 10-Reg clim.ppt

    Bob Wilson
     
    #7 bwilson4web, Jul 3, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2015
  8. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    +++
    The thought is now that both of these were really global, some poor analysis mislabeled the little ice age as only regional, but ignored proxies that showed that it occurred in all major oceans and continents other than antarctica.

    proxies are often only good for longer periods (30 years) so bad science to compare individual years of modern weather to past climates, but 30 year periods are much more stable in the poxies.[/quote]

    I would say it takes a much shorter period to detect a change, that 300-500 years is needed to see the change stabilize. We might as well go down with data as far down as the proxies let us reliably. But yes we should be careful that the change is continued in the proxies or real temperature and precipitation patterns.

    30 years rolling with modern measures and computers, so we should have 1985-2014 locked down to compare regional or local weather to climate. This period is too short to show extremes (2 sigma plus events) but can show normal high and low temperatures and precipitation. We can compare it to 30 year periods in the past to see how the climate has changed. If proxies from that period are only good for 100 year period, we should compare 1915-2014 climate to that climate, but of course that will miss some of the ghg changes.
     
  9. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Found another, associated metric:
    Source: RealClimate » Blog Archive » Hiatus or Bye-atus?

    . . .
    The figure shows that at every year during the past 30 years of modern global warming, the immediately preceding warming trend was always significant when 17 years (or more) were included in the calculation. In a number of cases—including in 2014—fewer years were required to reach significance, but never more than 17. This result should not be surprising: Significance requires statistical power to be detected, and the more observations are considered the greater the power of the analysis. The fact that a trend fails to reach significance with, say, only 5 or 10 years of data is therefore non-informative: no matter how robust the warming trend, once natural variability is superimposed on the trend, it will escape statistical detection with a small sample. To conclude from that that global warming has “stopped” is unwarranted. Nevertheless, a number of papers in the peer-reviewed literature have done just that. That is, they concluded that there was a pause in warming using a time period that was too short to achieve conventional statistical significance.

    To illustrate, we used the definitions of the pause found in our corpus of articles (mean duration 13.5 years), and asked how often the null hypothesis of no warming would fail to be rejected during the last 30 years. It turns out that during those 3 decades, the 14-year trend escaped significance 10 times and the 13-year trend 13 times, suggesting either that global surface warming “paused” between 30% and 43% of a time period during which the Earth warmed 0.6K overall, or that global surface warming never paused and what we have been observing are routine fluctuations superimposed on a warming trend.
    . . .

    Now a fair criticism is that this analysis was done to address whether or not there was a pause in the global warming. In lay terms, a nail in search of a hammer. I found a simpler answer. By adding or subtraction one year from 1998, an exceptionally hot year, the pause disappears. Hanging a pause on one data point is not much of a trend.

    So it was only a matter of time before global warming would fade the "pause" into just another rabbit in a noisy data record. Serendipity, 17 years between 1998 and 2015. Still, I wanted to make sure.

    I used another approach, plotting minimums and maximums from the Berkeley Earth shown here with the mean sea level:
    [​IMG]
    Both were smoothed using my favorite, a Gaussian filter, with a 12 month span. The data suggests we are due for a local maximum. Come August 2016, we'll be able to see what the summer of 2015 looks like.

    If there is a trend, not just the straight-line averages but also the local minimums and maximum will have the same slope. This is not the case which means the straight-line average a false trend line . . . "cherry picked."

    BTW, I don't toss out anomalies as sometimes they can lead to new insights. But to do the job right, you have to deal with a lot of data . . . more than the casual stuff we've been paying with.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #9 bwilson4web, Nov 29, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2015
  10. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    Also, without moving a station at all, development immediately around a station can change its conditions. E.g. for SeaTac Airport, the current official Seattle station, a bunch of timber was cleared and a third runway added beyond the instrument stand. For the prior official Seattle station, the downtown federal building, a lot of 'heat island' was added around it during its decades of operation.
     
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  11. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Youse guys are getting into my current saddle burr (mattress pea). Variability of measurements in time and space. Look at one site, and an appropriate definition of climate is long in time. Look instead at large regions, and the time constraint would appropriately be relaxed.

    I I not examining this for weather/climate, but instead for a broad range of ecological processes.

    So, if PriusChat falls off the internet again, I'll have more time to toil away.:):D:eek::rolleyes::unsure:
     
  12. dbcassidy

    dbcassidy Toyota Hybrid Nation, 8 Million Strong

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    Climate length also must include iteractions with other completing ""climates" - political, economic, business. The climate length will always vary over time. Wars, desease, turmoil, recession, financial disasters, all have an impact over the perceived length of climate.

    DBCassidy