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2003 Red Triangle, 4 times in 7 months, P1455, P0420, P3191

Discussion in 'Generation 1 Prius Discussion' started by danwatt, Jul 7, 2015.

  1. danwatt

    danwatt Junior Member

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    Location:
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    Vehicle:
    2003 Prius
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    I
    I have a 2003 with ~230,000 miles on it. We are the 4th owners, and have owned it for 7 years / 120,000 miles, and aside from a few minor annoyances that have been easily worked around thanks to this forum, it has been a great car.

    7 months ago, in December, I experienced my first red triangle of death. It happened on a warm start, but drove fine. Took it to O'Riley, they used an Innova 3120 to check the codes, and these are the 3 that came back (P1455, P0420, P3191). After starting the car the 4th time, the warnings went away, and all seemed well. It happened again about 3 months ago while on the highway, and again went away after 4 starts. At the time I was not too terribly worried about emissions codes, we live in an area that doesn't require testing, but the 3191 was the more ominous one.

    We just upgraded to the worlds cleanest 2005 Prius (70k miles, grandma drove it around the retirement community), and are trying to sell the 03. The red triangle came on again two days ago, about 5 minutes after a cold start, and again today, about 5 minutes after a warm start.

    I do not know what the current codes are, but I will be taking it to a store tomorrow to get them checked.

    I had an oil change 4 days ago. I checked the intake manifold for any sign of liquid (I saw several posts in RE to the 3191 of that being a possibility), and it is as clean as our '05s. I checked my service history, and didnt have anything done the first two times this happened.

    If the same codes persist, I'm assuming the problems could be cheap to almost what the car is worth (~$2,500). I'm a computer guy, not a car guy. The only work I have personally done was to replace the spark plugs about 18 months ago.

    I am cool with getting a scanner to help diagnose the problem further, and to have around if something were to happen to our 05 or my wife's (if its safe to say here) Honda Pilot, any suggestions would be appreciated. If it would be helpful to reset the codes, and have something collecting data while the car is running to try to pinpoint the problem when it happens, I am open to any suggestions.
     
  2. greasemonkey007

    greasemonkey007 Active Member

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    I would suggest getting the mini VCI with Techstream. It's the same software that the dealerships use, and you can get it for less than $50 on ebay or amazon. It will work on any Toyota that you connect the cable to. It will give you all the codes present, and you can reset them.
    My 01 model with 246,000 on it will throw multiple codes with the red triangle if the 12V battery gets disconnected or run down or sometimes for no apparent reason. I reset them and all is well again.
     
  3. danwatt

    danwatt Junior Member

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    Thanks for the suggestion. mini VCI ordered, should be here next week. Im going to Autozone over lunch today to get a quick check.

    I have an Optima yellow-top that I installed almost 5 years ago. Does anyone know how long those should typically last in a Prius? I have a multimeter that I can use to see if thats the problem. Since its not used to start the car, what kind of voltage should I see if it is still good?
     
  4. danwatt

    danwatt Junior Member

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    Took it to Autozone, their scanner didnt find any codes, and the triangle went away and did not come back on (yet). I did have a battery test done:
    • Voltage: 11.62
    • Measured: 444 CCA
    • Rated: 575 CCA
    • Temp: 97F
    This is after a 30 minute commute this morning, sitting in a parking lot for 4 hours, and a 10 minute drive to the auto store.

    OSD Diagnostic mode results:
    • Accessory mode, voltage ranged from 11.6 with all lights off, to about 10.0 with air circulating and lights on
    • With the engine running, 13.6-14.0.
     
    #4 danwatt, Jul 8, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2015
  5. greasemonkey007

    greasemonkey007 Active Member

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    I think I would put a trickle charger on the 12V and let it charge all day or overnight and check it again. Personally, I'm sold on the GYUSA that came in the car. I got a used one for mine when mine went out. It only had 1.36 V and it wouldn't even power up my harbor freight charger with the safety leads that prevent arcing if touched together. I put my old craftsman charger on it that's hot as soon as you plug it up. After 3 or 4 hours, it still wasn't doing anything. Then I got busy and forgot about it and came back 2 or 3 hours later and it was charging. I left it on 2 amp charge overnight and it's still going strong 30,000 miles later.
     
  6. danwatt

    danwatt Junior Member

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    Thanks! I've borrowed a charger from a friend and will let it charge tonight.
     
  7. danwatt

    danwatt Junior Member

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    Trickle charged for 6 hrs last night (not enough to top it off though) Backed it out today, warnings lights again, but this time the ICE started, but after about 30 seconds stopped, and was, well, jerky / sputtery as it spun down. Tried starting 6 times, same result each time.

    Multimeter shows 12.3 V at the battery, but the OSD Diagnostic shows 11.3V.

    No VCI/Techstream until Monday, but could this still be indicative of a bad aux battery? I am going to leave it on the charger until it is fully charged according to the 1.5A charger.

    If possibly a battery, are there any batteries that fit both the Gen 1 and Gen 2 Priuses? If I am going to buy something that is worth about 10% of the value of the car, only to find out that the issue lies elsewhere, I would like to be able to use the battery in my 'new' 05 (which is probably due a new battery in the next year or so).
     
  8. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    I assume you are referring to the 12V battery.

    You probably have noticed that the Classic Prius battery sits on the left side of the trunk while the 2G (and 3G for that matter) Prius have the battery on the right side of the hatch. The significance of this positioning is that the terminal polarity is reversed with respect to the side of the battery that the terminals are located on. The Classic Prius battery has the + terminal on the right, as you face the battery with the terminals closest to you - while the 2G Prius battery has the + terminal on the left.

    It would be unsafe to install the battery intended for one model, on the other because the battery terminals will be adjacent to the fender, and in the event you are hit on that fender by another vehicle, the positive terminal may be shorted to body ground which would cause a fire hazard.
     
  9. danwatt

    danwatt Junior Member

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    Got my MiniVCI and Techstream today, thank you guys for the recommendation. Thanks Patrick for making me get my eyes checked. I've only had my 05 for about a month, and only glanced in the battery compartment to see what brand was in there, not how it was laid out.

    There were only two codes - P3191 on the main engine, P3101 on the hybrid system.

    I can pretty reliably get the car to throw the error if I start it and leave it in park - the ICE will shut down after 8 seconds. If I throw it into gear before 8 seconds, it will drive ok.

    Likely culprit still the battery?
     
  10. dolj

    dolj Senior Member

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    The P3191 is not really helpful, it just tells you that the ICE did not start. There should be sub-codes for these two codes.

    I found a document relating to the P3101 which I have attached. Not sure if is useful.

    There are no battery codes, so I wouldn't jump to conclusions without any evidence to support it.

    As Grisham always says to his underlings, follow the evidence.
     

    Attached Files:

    #10 dolj, Jul 13, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2015
  11. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    1. Clean the throttle body plate and throttle body interior using throttle body cleaner and a clean cloth, as documented in post #10 above. Remove the air cleaner housing for access.
    2. Clean the mass air flow sensor using MAF spray cleaner (not throttle body cleaner).
    3. Clear the DTC and see if they come back.
    4. If they do, find the part number of the engine ECU located behind the glove compartment. If the last two digits are less than 54, you could buy a used engine ECU with 54 as the last two digits, and that may help. Since your car is a 2003 model year, you may already have the latest version engine ECU installed.
    5. At this point there is no reason to think the high voltage traction battery has a problem.
     
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  12. danwatt

    danwatt Junior Member

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    Vehicle:
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    Thanks guys for your help. After cleaning the MAF and the TB, the car appears to be running great with no new engine codes.