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Arctic Sea ice 2015

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by bwilson4web, Mar 27, 2015.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Thanks,
    In effect, the geothermal melted water at the base works like greasing a pig . . . making it easier for the glacier to slip into the sea . . . a natural 'slip and slide.' But there are multiple ways Antarctica can lose ice:
    • reduced precipitation
    • dry air sublimation
    • surface melting
    • glacier flows to the sea
    • warm sea currents undermining glaciers
    Each plays a role but there is an interesting aspect of orbital mechanics:
    1. Southern 'summer' is ~3 days shorter than Northern 'summer', -1.6% shorter
    2. Southern solar light is ~3.5% brighter in the 'summer'
    I've got to put together a quick model but this goes part of the way to explain why Antarctica is so much colder. Then add to that the vastly different CO{2} levels found over the Southern hemisphere versus the industrialized Northern hemisphere and we have an Apples vs Oranges situation. Antarctica is distinctly different from the Arctic and OCO-2 shows that CO{2} levels are not the same.

    Bob Wilson
     
  2. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    So the Thwaites Glacier area is showing about 114 mW/m^2 of geothermal heat overall, and over 200 mW in the hotspots, compared to planetwide averages of about 70 mW for continental crust and 100 mW for oceanic crust.

    Big whoopee. That is more about greasing the skids than melting the bulk ice. For the later, that geothermal heat is still small potatoes compared to the greenhouse gas components, at about 1600 mW for CO2 and 500 mW for CH4, both of which apply over vastly larger areas:
    Radiative forcing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    When I see discussion of warm water melting ice from underneath, it is mostly about ocean water under floating ice. That brings in far more then 200 mW for melting.
     
    #42 fuzzy1, Jul 8, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2015
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  3. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    lol. I know that joni ernst gaine popularity partially with her pig stories, but they never made sense to a city boy/nature lover like me. Either I don't really understand the magic of greasing a pig, or maybe there is a better way to understand.

    I apologize for bringing up other factors which is pulling this off topic but maybe this nat geo article about the studies is more understandable than the paper I referenced, as to mechanism for measuring and melting antarctic ice.

    Warming Seas Drive Rapid Acceleration of Melting Antarctic Ice

    Hopefully that helps.

    Back to the national geographic article.
    So yes it is a big influence. Ice is continually melting and freezing in the antartic. If you speed up the melting then the balance changes.

    The problem with affinity sites like the ones that mojo goes to is not that they always put out misinformation, it is that they choose to ignore conflicting information. Mojo is correct the melt in antarctica does indeed scientifically look mainly natural, and it appears that the WAIS melted a great deal more in the last interglacial. The importance of understanding how the melt is proceeding is to model sea level rise.

    Bottom line we are measuring both extent and mass of antarctic ice with tools like grace and radar from airplanes. That can tell us how much ice in Antarctica, and albedo is slowly growing with extent (area) while mass is shrinking (thickness and area combined). Once depth declines enough extent will also decline and the melting ice not only will contribute more water to sea levels but the changed albedo will accelerate the melt.

    Mechanisms in the arctic appear much more related to global temperature, and the arctic reacted more strongly with more ice during the little ice age, and more radiative melting during this ghg enhanced warming.
     
    #43 austingreen, Jul 8, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2015
  4. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    A while back, we worked up the math for just volcanic melting: Global Air Temps | Page 5 | PriusChat

    We are on the same sheet of paper:
    This is an area where climate models can provide insights but they also need field observations to 'tweak' the unknowns.

    Bob Wilson
     
  5. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    It looks like the Arctic break-up is happening this week:
    [​IMG]

    Source: Daily AMSR2 sea ice maps

    Right now, it looks like the NorthWest passage will open first. BTW, that sliver of ice on the North Alaska shore follows:
    • Islands (west to east): Cross, McClure, Stockton, Maguire, Flaxman
    • River outlets: Stanies Canning - probably the fresh water makes harder ice

    Bob Wilson
     
    #45 bwilson4web, Jul 9, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2015
  6. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    God that is an ugly picture. It looked like someone pucked then photographed in in another spectrum. This one is a lot easier at least for me to read, but you may have better eyes than I do when it comes to reading badly colored charts. Information should be similar, with this image showing extent as well as average (median).

    Arctic Sea Ice News and Analysis | Sea ice data updated daily with one-day lag
    http://nsidc.org/data/seaice_index/images/daily_images/N_daily_extent_hires.png
    [​IMG]

     
    #46 austingreen, Jul 9, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2015
  7. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I am used to the density scale. The light yellows are where mixed density and broken ice exists. The cracks reduce albedo significantly. Add wind blowing to open water and things change quickly. The Russia site has winds and air pressure.
     
  8. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Wow! I forgot that some of my graphic links are to 'live data.' <GRINS>

    Apparently not everyone got 'liar liar' mojo's memo that there will be no Arctic passage this year:
    Source: Chinese Merchant Ship Launches First Two-way Arctic Voyage

    Chinese Merchant Ship Launches First Two-way Arctic Voyage
    2015-07-10 20:33:29 CRIENGLISH.com Web Editor: Mao

    Chinese merchant ship "Yong Sheng" has launched its first two-way Arctic voyage from Dalian, northeast China's Liaoning Province. Yong Sheng is a multipurpose ship loaded with nearly 10-thousand tons of export rolled steel products. It plans to enter the Bering Strait in early August, and arrive in Denmark at around mid-August, before returning to China in October.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #48 bwilson4web, Jul 20, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2015
  9. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I'm not sure that should make it understandable, or really is an obfuscation. You can abasolutely add density information by tranparrent shading without choosing colors that make it hard to understand (in your example green and blue are land and water and density colors. There was no scale of normal, or average, which makes it even harder to understand to a viewer not used to the complex color chart.

    I think I understand the information you are trying to convey with that chart, but you probably need at least 3 paragraphs of additional information to understand it. A good picture is worth a thousand words, but a bad chart needs too many words to work for a quick idea of what is happening. When I clicked to your source it does have the "Artist sea ice algorithm" of the plot which is much easier for a general audience to understand than the false color one you posted, although it is missing some features.
     
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  10. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Looking at the color scale, I can understand the problem. Typically I like my colors to range the spectrum and density. I would have been much happier with 'gray scale' being used for land and snow-covered land. But it is what it is. I'm just used to it having studied it for several years.

    Interesting to me is how the western shore of Greenland rapidly became ice free and it looks like major fjords on the east shore are also losing their sea ice. Such melting/migration leads to faster ice flows into the sea.

    The other curious blob is that chunk of sea ice North of Alaska. If the broken areas continue, it could be one heck of a floating ice shelf knocking around the Arctic.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  11. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Last night, I took a longer look at the webcams at the North pole:
    Arctic theme page - North Pole Web Cam

    These are a set of instrumented buoys anchored over the North pole and we can get current snapshots of what is and has been going on. What attracted my attention was this screen shot:
    [​IMG]
    That splotch on the right edge is a pool of melt water. The webcam animations: 'small' is .avi and 'large' is .mov. You can watch the melt water pools form on the sea ice and grow:
    [​IMG]

    What made this especially interesting is the EU Cryosat-2 uses radar sounding to report ice volume. But they suspended operation over the Arctic in May because these surface pools scramble the data. It is really hard to detect the surface ice and underlying sea water if there is a cover of melt water on top of the ice. So Arctic sea ice inventories are suspended until the cold weather returns to freeze these surface pool.

    BTW, it looks like we may see both the Northeast and Northwest passage open this season. The Russians have started a significant ice-breaker build that should see new ships, including a nuclear one and several smaller diesels, by 2020. Meanwhile, the USA and Canada are operating some very old, ice breakers that should have been replaced a decade ago.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #51 bwilson4web, Jul 22, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2015
  12. mojo

    mojo Senior Member

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  13. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I was looking at one of Arctic ice sources today on an iPhone and noticed a curious artifact. Here I've expanded that section like the iPhone zoom function:
    [​IMG]
    Straight lines and precise, angle turns are the signature of man. This looks like the track of a Russian ice breaker through the last ice section connecting the Arctic shore to the floating sea ice. If so, the Northeast passage is open to shipping. But I suspect even this little section will be gone within a week.

    Bob Wilson
     
  14. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    For those of us disinclined to chase all available north-polar ice summaries, is NSIDC good enough? is there any other one singularly better?
     
  15. mojo

    mojo Senior Member

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  16. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Yes if you are patient. Their 'daily' log discusses the previous month but has a couple of current charts. Just I don't find their data and charts all that helpful for what is currently going on. However it is complimented by the Danish site.

    My current favorites are:
    • Daily AMSR2 sea ice maps - a German site because it has sea ice density with both false color and a 'white and black line crack' images. This one gives predictive information of what is likely to happen over the next couple of days.
    • NSR - Ice Concentration | Northern Sea Route Information Office - a Russian site, it does not have the high resolution of the German site but it does include basic weather data including air pressure and wind direction. Winds off of the land mass tends to accelerate sea ice melting and can concentrate floating sea ice to change the concentration. Air pressure helps predict what will happen in the next 24 hours.
    An ideal, Arctic site would include:
    • German Arctic ice daily images
      • improve the false color scale
    • Weather over Arctic and equal distant land
      • winds
      • pressure
      • temperature
      • precipitation
    • Ship following transponders
      • include ship based, weather observations
    • Links to webcams
    In effect, parts of all of the site identified in the first post of this thread.

    Bob Wilson
     
  17. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Found a Canadian Ice web site that provides a lot of detail missing from the others although some is delayed:
    [​IMG]
    For example, I'd noticed the ice cover of Hudson Bay had concentrated on the eastern shore. The Canadian images provide a lot high resolution and context. For example, I was not aware of the islands found just off the eastern shore. We've also seen some the north shore islands of Alaska are also anchoring ice this year. The only problem is some images are a little delayed, today is July 25 and the image is July 17-20.

    Apparently this shifted ice is giving some of the denier press a lot of fun as the Canadians shift their ice breakers around. But this is just the usual "Oh it is snowing outside my window so Al Gore was wrong." nonsense.

    Bob Wilson
     
  18. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    The Northeast passage (aka., Russian side) appears to be open to shipping. That ice breaker trick earlier this week worked well.

    The Northwest passage remains closed especially because neither the Canadians nor USA have made a significant investment in ice breakers. Too early to tell if the last blockage will melt out this year.

    Now to watch the ship traffic:
    Live Ships Map - AIS - Vessel Traffic and Positions - AIS Marine Traffic

    Found another: IVAN ZHDANOV, destination St. Petersberg (RU NEV)

    Bob Wilson
     
    #58 bwilson4web, Jul 26, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2015
  19. mojo

    mojo Senior Member

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    Dude, Gore predicted ice free Arctic in 2015.WRONG.
    Bob you have been cheer leading for that ice loss manifestation for the past few years.
    Now that you are shown to be WRONG,dont let that bother you just call deniers "nonsense".
    Bob you are wrong a lot.You listen to those who are wrong a lot.
    Just saying that you may want to reevaluate by asking why you are WRONG all the time?
    Maybe you should perfect making correct predictions before you try to influence others opinions?
    Maybe the AGW movement as a whole should try to make a single correct prediction before they try to influence others.





     
    #59 mojo, Jul 26, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2015
  20. mojo

    mojo Senior Member

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    The expert global warming Arctic ice loss expert is Peter Wadhams.
    He claims an ice free Arctic by 2015.
    With Methane escaping which will destroy the planet.
    Turns out hes losing his sanity.
    He claims 3 Arctic scientists have been murdered by BIG OIL or the British government.
    One was struck by lightning.One fell down stairs alone with his spouse.
    Another was hit on a bike by a truck.
    Well Wadhams was run off the road recently by a truck and thats his proof and logic that theres an assassination plot against Arctic climate scientists.
    If you think this is a strawman argument its not.
    This is a real man who is looney whom AGW believers like Bob base their ideology and arguments upon.