First Hyundai now BMW. Ditching Fuel Cell Vehicles

wow -

going from, 'it takes 2X longer for payback' tangent to, 'saving so much with BEV' tangent. You win ....
I'll just stay here on earth - not bouncing to Neptune with anyone. But if that's where you're heading, have a nice trip.

I like how poor ol' Craig had to explain away Hyundai's hydrogen refuel fail. Pretty much suggesting that it won't happen to Toyota .... and then clarifying the $15,000 refueling price tag over the 3yr leases. Wow, $5k/ for one year of fuel ... that would get me a half million miles in my crappy Leaf .... that'd be 40 years of EV driving. I'd be in my 90's ... better get busy.
.

 

when you look in the mirror is this what you see?

 

Well, let's see, you put up annual fuel costs personalized for your situation which is far from the norm(15k miles/yr and 12 cents/kWh average, not 30k miles/yer and 18cent/kWh) as reason for why BEVs aren't practical when no one has claimed that they will work for everyone.When it is pointed out that there are more reasons to getting a BEV than saving money, you counter with a couple of broad brush, and misleading statements. A BEV does not cost 3x more. While a Model S cost that much or more than a Prius, as you pointed out, the majority aren't buying luxury cars. A person looking in the Prius price range for a car would be looking at the Leaf, which may be $5000 or 20% more. Depending on available incentives, it could even be less than the Prius.

A BEV could emit more GHG than a Prius in some locals, but the majority of BEV buyers aren't trading in a Prius, and are unlikely to buy a Prius instead of the BEV. On heavy coal grids, a BEV emits less GHG than the average new vehicle bought. Their GHG emissions are on par with a car more likely to be purchased in their stead. With gasoline getting more carbon intensive and the US grid less, the BEV owner doesn't need to purchase green power or install PV to emit less over the life of the car. While a person that bought a Tesla and installed PV could likely do more good just installing more PV for the price of the car, as you put forward in this thread, that ignores basic human nature, and the likely hood that they don't have the space for all those panels.

When called out for just using negatives, and countered with positives, for BEV ownership, you called the poster a troll as the sole response, though that may have been partly a childish "no you are" response.

You constantly judge the BEV endeavor as impractical golf carts by your minority criteria and dismiss any points contrary to that. Since I can swim, you'll be fine with me pushing you into the sea?

 

Have you looked which markets BEVs are sold at? do you really pay 12 cents/kWh in LA, SF?

I concede to 30k/yr comment; lets use 15k so it will take twice the time to recover costs.

No comment

 

I think you have been saying might as well get a Prius, can drive all over the country on quick fillups, it's cheaper and in some places it emits less GHG (?)

I say I would rather have a BEV (Leaf) around me in town, on the freeway, in a parking lot because that BEV is putting NOTHING out of its tailpipe. Leafs are affordable and whoever want to live with one, more power to them. I don't like them, but that's ok if others do..

If you carry on too awfully much about how great FCEV's will become (is that your point?), are you at least planning to get one fairly soon?

 

Actually the point is that it is very hypocritical of BEV fans to diss on FCEV, when they are well in almost the same boat.

Hybrids in general are more practical and flexible, but if BEV works for you and this is what you want so be it! Just don't squeal on FCEVs like those SUV owners on Prius when Toyota was having issue with brakes.

EDIT: and no I am not planning to get FCEV any time soon. Have no desire to be an early adapter and pay premium. We've jumped on hybrid wagon with Gen3, so I'll wait for Gen3 Murai :lol:

 

The point was that there was more reasons for getting a BEV than saving money. Just as there are more reasons for getting a hybrid than saving money. There would probably be even less Prius cs sold if people solely considered the pay off.
Compare Side-by-Side

You replied to an admission that BEVs weren't practical for long trips with the equivalent of 'they are even worse', and have referred to them as golf carts.

No one is saying BEVs are practical for everyone, but their limits aren't as great as some supposed. PHVs are far more practical than FCEVs for those looking to lower emissions, reduce petroleum use, and still be able to take long trips without extra planning.

The hydrogen FCEV's success and practicality all hinges on getting the people to pay for the refueling infrastructure.

 

There are close to 400,000 plug-in vehicles in the US and around 200 fcv. How are they in the same boat? Plug-ins are close to the point where they work without government subsidies, fuel cell vehicles are at teh point where they are asking for higher government subsidies.

Is it hypocritical to say to those claiming fuel cells are more mainstream, that first they have to sell more before claiming no one wants to buy the better selling, less subsided item?

 

More evidence Government Motors "same old, same old" . Just like their corp mind set back in the early days of the Prius - there no market for the Prius.

Some things never change.

DBCassidy

 

Except they are still in the game through their Honda partnership.

 

they are both subsidized?

 

They also both have 4 wheels, etc.

Fuel cell lobby -> We want the same amount of funds that plug-ins get.
Steven Chu, you are not ready. We will give you more for R&D, but not a lot more for cars for commercialization. I just don't see many cars on the road by 2019 no matter what we spend (2019)
Mary Nichols (head of carb and one of the chief lobbyists ->2009, they need as much money, not as much per car. That is a level playing field. We will have 50,000 by 2018, then fuel cells will probably sell more than plug-ins. Give us the money.
Carb 2015 ->OK you gave us more money for commercialization. Now we can have 34,000 cars by 2022 (4 more years) but we need more money than that extra money you gave us, because its not enough for stations.
Toyota 2015. Fuel cell cars will sell bettery than plug-ins because plug in batteries are not ready. People really want something that works just like gas, but is green and a lot more expensive. $50K is a great price for a fuel cell camry, sorry we lost a seat.

---------------------------------------------
Doe in 2009 there will be 1 million plug-in cars by 2016
Doe in 2015, ok we will use the same money but we will only have 40% by then. 1 million cars by 2020 now.
DOE, tesla, nissan, chevy, ford, bmw. battery prices are falling as expected. We are doing designs that will sell better. We have heard the customers.

I guess plug-ins hit 40% of the goal, and fcv carb is hoping will reach 20% but it could fall short of that 20% and they need a lot more money to reach that 50,000 cars within a few years of plug-ins reaching 1 million.

 

Hah!, lets' see how long that lasts!.

DBCassidy

 

Toyota Alt Fuel Manager: Hydrogen Infrastructure Lagging, Today's Stations Not "Mirai-friendly"

 

Exactly right.

I still want a PhEV. Around 20 mile range should suit me to drop my transport oil consumption to about 100 MPG.

 

what we need is the battery technology break through. Fit Gen4 with 8kWh battery, offer a charger option for $399 and there will be people jumping on PHEV bandwagon. If we had one I could justify solar array economically (with return less then 20+ years).

 

Better not go down that road ... once you start - you'll be addicted .... looking for more & more pv ... better & better traction packs in cars ... thumbing your nose at the oil industry ... next thing you know you'll be shopping at whole foods & demanding Toyota sell EV's in all 50 ... it's all down hill from there. Turn back!

.

 

Not gonna happen. He needs a real car not a golf cart.

 

Thanks for the warning, but I have been sold on the idea of home PV and *EV for a long time.

 

it's great PC has someone here to act as everyone else's best decision maker. Must be tough - codependency with the thousands here. Keep up the good work
.