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The Problem With Rooftop Solar That Nobody Is Talking About

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by usbseawolf2000, Jan 19, 2016.

  1. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    does this mean that diesel rather than soler, is the problem nobody is talking about?
    ;)
    .
     
  2. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    We were talking about the past incentives. The solar issue nobody is talking about is marketing and selling renewable electricity without the key ingredient ;)
     
  3. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Which is appearing to be just another buyer beware issue, with a proper DA response of warnings in markets where some companies are playing it fast and loose with the rules. But solar power was added to the grid for the money spent. So until it is discovered somebody took money for solar, but built a coal plant instead, this is really a non-issue.
     
  4. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    They were completely different pieces of legislation. Plug-in tax credit happened much before the bail out. If was designed mainly in 2006 before anyone thought there would be a need to bail out gm or Chrysler.

    It was expanded during around the time of the bailout, but again it couldn't help fast, so no, bailout help from plug-in incentives, and time line contradicts this thesis. Obama has argued the bail out helped reduce unemployment and helped in the recovery. You can argue with him.

    Time to stop beating this dead horse.

    From your link
    No revision of history on my part read it again, and my post. I said it was there to reduce oil and advance hybrid technology, and failed at its goals. We can agree on that. Toyota was ahead in 2005, and ran out of credits in 2007, so it didn't really encourage toyota to advance the tech, it was out too soon, and no one passed them.

    It was not about althernative fuels. Hybrids use gasoline in the US, not alternative fuels. That part is about flex fuels with alcohol, nothing to do with hybrids. CARB blocked this part on hybrids and phevs by making evaporative emissions and ratings harder with flex fuel. Since carb got a large percentage of hybrids and phevs their block of alternative fuel hybrids and phevs pretty much has stopped any flex fuel ones being marketed.

    Now what does this have to do with solar srecs in california?

    Maybe diesel and solar are part of the solution and not the problem.

    Seriously, california's implementation of building solar through mandates counted by the srec market is very inefficient. There has been lots of talk about it. If someone builds solar or fuel cells either themselves or through a company like solar city then they get out of the big utility trap with all its costs in california. Some of the costs of their system are then given to the left over customers. The CPUC seems to continue to regulate to make electricity from the big utilities Pacific gas and electric and Southern California Edison, SDE, and LADWP more and more expensive as time goes on. This has been effective at building solar, but bad for rate payers.

    Now IMHO it was very disingenous for mother jones to pretend that somehow solar was magic and big bad solar city was ripping off customers by selling their srecs. It is part of the california plan. It should be obvious and publicized, but much of what CPUC, CARB, and big utilities have been doing have been lied about in california for so long, that some one like solar city spending time educating customers about it will only waste time and reduce sales. California should probably encourage ccgt built in state to reduce imports and build out the grid, but that would reduce costs and force big utilities to write down their old plants hurting share holder value. That would be good for rate payers, and allow more solar to be built without adding cost to citizens, but it would decrease the power of CARB (lower value of cap and tax plan). Apple and google are the california companies making huge profits not solar city, and they have been able to build their own power to get out of the way of poor california regulation.

    That being said no state is building solar as fast as california, so other states are doing more wrong. Germany has built solar much faster than california, but its electricity is more expensive. When we look at a map 5 states - California, Nevada, Arizona, and New Mexico have the best solar potential. The question should be why aren't these places growing solar faster. Utah, Colorado, Wyoming, South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma, Texas, and Louisiana have good solar but good wind also, and are developing wind first. 6 more states - Oregon, Alabama, South Carolina, Georgia, and Florida have good solar and not good wind, hawaii doesn't have natural gas so solar is more competitive, so they should be doing better as well.

    Fraud in california? Lots of it. Utility Scam - Assemblymember Cristina Garcia Representing the 58th California Assembly District
    The hit piece is about not disclosing certain contract information if not asked. All of california businesses do that.
    16 SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA EDISON complaints and reviews @ Pissed Consumer
    2 PACIFIC GAS AND ELECTRIC COMPANY complaints and reviews @ Pissed Consumer
     
    #44 austingreen, Jan 29, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 6, 2016
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  5. JimN

    JimN Let the games begin!

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    One SREC is worth 1000 kwh of generated solar power. In NJ it seems the SREC is sold on several exchanges and is valued around $285. PSE&G charges about $180.00 to deliver 1000kwh of electricity.

    For those with solar installations who sell their own SREC how long does it take to earn one SREC and post to your account? What is the advantage to holding the SREC instead of selling it?
     
  6. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    It depends on the size of the system. Mine generated 1 SREC a month in Jul and Aug. A bit more estimated in May and Jun but we'll see.

    Starting from Jul 2015, I generated 5 so far.

    I sold my 73 SRECs in exchange for $12k in PSE&G Solar loan to cover half of my upfront cost.

    I could probably make more money if I sell them myself but that requires me to have $25k upfront cost.

    If I kept the SRECs, I can claim I am powered by solar with 100% renewable zero carbon electricity. If I sell my SRECs, I can no longer claim the zero carbon but instead what I get from my regional grid mix. I can't claim both as there is no cheap green electricity. The greener it is, the more expensive.
     
  7. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    And either way, society's GHG is lowered because of your solar panels. So thank you, whether you sell the SRECs or not(y)
     
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  8. JimN

    JimN Let the games begin!

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    Thanks for the explanation.
     
  9. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

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    For what it's worth, I very recently signed up for PG&E's new (Northern California) solar renewables program.

    Solar Choice | Residential | PG&E

    I assume it's not the cheapest way to get solar power but it's easy and putting panels directly on my building right now would involve complications I'd rather not deal with.

    Once the new plan kicks into gear in a month or so I'll be charging the Volt on 100% renewable solar when I'm at home and I hope to lease a Bolt EV within the next year so I can stop having to recharge on that dirty, dirty California grid electricity when I am at work. :)

    Eventually, I hope to get a Tesla Model 3 after they start making them and shake out any initial problems.

    The PG&E plan comes in two flavors. Initially, they build enough small to medium size regional solar to fulfill solar plan customers and then use the remaining solar generation to satisfy their 33% renewable by 2020 legal requirement (50% by 2030). Later on, some PG&E's solar developers will compete to sign up customers directly for power from their specific PV farms.
     
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  10. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Congratulations!
     
  11. mojo

    mojo Senior Member

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    Some other problems with rooftop solar.
    If your buildings burning firefighters can't access the roof due to risk of electrical shock.Another problem I surmise is how do panels work when covered with snow?Do you need to shovel the roof after every storm to make coffee?
     
  12. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    I don't know about other communities, but where we are, you are not allowed to block all roof access with solar panels. You have to leave the roof's ridge open (2' from ridge) , the sides open, and the bottom of the gables open. Similarly, the code in our county requires shut off switches that prevent being electrocuted. In the event of fire, the fire department is thoroughly instructed on how use the shutoff to deactivate them. If you're worried about coffee not being able to percolate, you'd have to have a battery backup system. 90% or more of solar users are grid tied. Being grid-tied, you don't worry about percolating coffee - as a last resort I'd suggest heading to Starbucks

    .
     
    #52 hill, Feb 5, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2016
  13. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Solar Energy | What Risks do Solar Panels Pose for Firefighters? - Solar Energy


    My pro-solar city trains our firefighters. Perhaps the problem is with bad training if you can find any examples at all.

    How do you get electricity when the panels are blocked? Well if you get it installed correctly with net metering, you simply use grid power when your blocked. If you want to be net zero simply build enough panels to offset the fossil burn, its pretty simple. Do not get on your roof during a blizzard unless you are an idiot trying to prove that you are a candidate for the darwin awards.
     
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  14. mojo

    mojo Senior Member

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  15. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    OK one with a minor injury one fine. They think it had to do with the water fighting the fire, don't know why it wasn't shut down, but they came from the other roof. It sounds like they were trained and one got a boo boo. Don't you think there are injuries in coal plants, and coal mines? I thought from the headline that I might learn something, but this is a non story.
     
  16. San_Carlos_Jeff

    San_Carlos_Jeff Active Member

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    The definitive headline doesn't really match what is in the article:

    “It’s possible that the solar panels, we had water up on the roof, there could have been electrical coming off the solar panels into the water which is a great conduit and the firefighter was standing in water,” Batallion Chief Michael Thompson said.

    Also,

    "PG&E crews were responding this afternoon to shut off power to the home and try to determine what happened, she said."

    So it is possible, but it's also possible that a house still connected to the grid could of shocked the firefighters some other way that has nothing to do with the solar panels. It would be interesting to see what the investigation finds on this house.
     
  17. mojo

    mojo Senior Member

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    #57 mojo, Feb 6, 2016
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  18. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    "Those electrocution fears combined with concerns of a collapse forced firefighters to simply spray the building with water and foam from afar."
    Roof collapse has always been a concern. Specially in a warehouse where the only support could be the exterior walls.

    “The new paradigm is firefighters might encounter building systems they have little or no knowledge of,” Willette said. “It used to be homes and commercial buildings had roofs and walls and heating and ventilation systems that the fire service was used to dealing with…modern technology, both in building construction and these other alternative energy systems, have changed that.”
    A firefighter once remarked about having a tough time venting a roof because it was made up of 4 layers of wood and metal.
     
  19. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Well now we have a legitmate point. Having solar panels or a fancy roof may increase the chance of the roof being lost in case of a fire. Its not a safety hazzard, or a hazzard in most homes that have only a tiny fire risk. Most bigger risks are living in dry places with lots of trees, thats a much bigger fire risk, probably 10% of the US population.
     
  20. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    If they merely flip the master PV disconnect next to my billing meter, OR yank the PV meter, OR yank the billing meter, then my AC micro-inverter-based system shuts down and is isolated, preventing any electrical shock risk. All of these are at the same location where firefighters go to shut off the eletricity for a fire in a regular non-solar building.

    Some older DC systems don't fully shut down that easily. That ended with the 2014 revision of the NEC (Nation Fire Proection Association's National Electric Code).
    Order National Electrical Code (NFPA 70) (Current Edition 2014)
     
    #60 fuzzy1, Feb 18, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2016
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