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Polar Ice For 2016

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by bwilson4web, Dec 23, 2015.

  1. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    For those who comprehend that DMI, the Danish Meteorological Institute, is not an operated or controlled by Bob and myself, here is an article about what happened, and why Mojo's favorite Arctic sea ice extent graph was removed from the DMI website --

    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    "Sea Ice extent - explanation on an appearent divergence between algorithms.
    DMI has removed the old sea ice extent graph to focus the attention on the new graph that is based on data from an improved algorithm.
    However, the removal of the old sea ice extent graph was done at an unfortunate time, namely, during a period where it seemed that the new and old ice extent plots disagreed (see figure 1). Naturally this has led to discussion among our dedicated followers, about the "true" ice extent. The apparent elevated sea ice extent in the data from the old extent algorithm was an artifact, caused by a new and higher resolution coast mask.
    ...
    Plots of sea ice types February 22 2015 (left) and February 22 2016 (right) using 2 different coast masks.
    The mask used before summer 2015(left) is wider than the new mask (right), corresponding to approximately 1.4 million km2 less area under the new mask.


    Because of the deprecated status of the old plot in the past year, DMI has not been monitoring these irregularities. The old plot should, of cause, have been removed when the mask was replaced. DMI apologizes for the confusion and inconvenience this has caused."
    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    See the full article, with the graphs in question and other illustrations, at:
    Ocean and Ice Services | Danmarks Meteorologiske Institut
     
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  2. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

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    The force of confirmation bias is a strong one making humans quite interesting creatures.
     
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  3. mojo

    mojo Senior Member

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    DMIs explanation doesn’t make sense to me.
    I would think that the 30% area would have less contact with the coast ,thus would be less affected by a revised mask.
    Whereas if a new coastal mask has so much affect from 2015 onward ,how can the 15% data be compared to any previous years prior to 2016?Shouldnt all the previous years be recalculated using the new mask?
    Isnt the 2016 15% data the artifact of adjustment?
     
  4. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    This is the reason for double blind experiments. Unfortunately we are in the realm of politics as well as science, and the politicians add a political bias to the confirmation bias, and seem to hate objective numbers.

    One thing is for sure the sea level is rising, and some of the rise is attributed to human ghg generation. Those politically bent will focus on only one ice cap and not both. Here we get fast ice loss from ghg on the arctic, and little if any on the antarctic. If you want to confirm you bias, you will look at one and not both. If you want to bias Castrostrophic you will also ignore ENSO and hand pick where it warms and call it all ghg, or if you are political for little ghg climate change focus only on oscillations and show that little warming has occured since 1998
     
    #24 austingreen, Mar 10, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2016
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  5. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I'm using: Princeton University - Gravity data show that Antarctic ice sheet is melting increasingly faster

    During the past decade, Antarctica's massive ice sheet lost twice the amount of ice in its western portion compared with what it accumulated in the east, according to Princeton University researchers who came to one overall conclusion — the southern continent's ice cap is melting ever faster.

    The researchers "weighed" Antarctica's ice sheet using gravitational satellite data and found that from 2003 to 2014, the ice sheet lost 92 billion tons of ice per year, the researchers report in the journal Earth and Planetary Science Letters. If stacked on the island of Manhattan, that amount of ice would be more than a mile high — more than five times the height of the Empire State Building.

    The vast majority of that loss was from West Antarctica, which is the smaller of the continent's two main regions and abuts the Antarctic Peninsula that winds up toward South America. Since 2008, ice loss from West Antarctica's unstable glaciers doubled from an average annual loss of 121 billion tons of ice to twice that by 2014, the researchers found. The ice sheet on East Antarctica, the continent's much larger and overall more stable region, thickened during that same time, but only accumulated half the amount of ice lost from the west, the researchers reported.

    There was a recent call from a Goddard climate scientist for another ICESAT mission to measure surface height but some of his claims didn't quite read right. I think we have a thread that mentioned it in the past year.

    One set of climate modelers report that during global warming, there can be higher accumulations on Antarctica because the increased humidity leads to more snowfall. That appears to be happening in East Antarctica but the next sum of East and West Antarctica appears to be a loss . . . according to Grace.

    I too have noticed a 'political' bias that seems to claim folks are not looking at Antarctica. Sad to say, when we do, it fits some of the models and is suffering an accelerating loss.

    Bob Wilson
     
  6. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Antartica lost more than some models predicted. This loss was not in areas predicted by ghg loss, but in most of the papers found to be due to changes in currents that brought geothermal heat. Antartica lost much less ice than catastrophic climate change models predicted.

    One can ignore natural, and claim catastrophic human caused melt, but that does not seem to meet the majority of the papers. Therefore it takes confirmation bias to select the patpers that go in that direction. We have had pachuri and trenberth, postulate that if you can't prove it is not human caused then it must be human caused. That really is a refutation of the scientific method.

    So there you have it. Some predict the catastrophic. The greater than 2 meter rise in sea levels in the 21st century caused by human generated ghg. When other scientists have looked for evidence here, the data refutes that catastrophic hypothesis. We need to look at ice dynamics and other things. Still people will get mad at those scientists putting out the relatively good news, and the claim is it gives amuntition to the deniers. That the data needs to be embelished. I don't like that. Yes its easy to see a political bias here. I hope pachuri's replacement sticks to the science.

    So yes we should look at all of what grace tells us. antartic is probably melting slightly faster than natural because of ghg, but no where near the catastrophic predictions. We can also look at the last 2 interglacials where antartic melted a great deal more than it has so far. It is hard to look at the data and find a way that the bulk of the antartic melt is not natural and would not have occured without so much human ghg. Still we can join the politicians and paint it as if it is a disaster, and it will crack any day now.
     
  7. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Source: 2016 Arctic Sea Ice Wintertime Extent Hits Another Record Low | NASA

    Arctic sea ice appears to have reached a record low wintertime maximum extent for the second year in a row, according to scientists at the NASA-supported National Snow and Ice Data Center (NSIDC) and NASA.

    Every year, the cap of frozen seawater floating on top of the Arctic Ocean and its neighboring seas melts during the spring and summer and grows back in the fall and winter months, reaching its maximum yearly extent between February and April. On March 24, Arctic sea ice extent peaked at 5.607 million square miles (14.52 million square kilometers), a new record low winter maximum extent in the satellite record that started in 1979. It is slightly smaller than the previous record low maximum extent of 5.612 million square miles (14.54 million square kilometers) that occurred last year. The 13 smallest maximum extents on the satellite record have happened in the last 13 years.

    The new record low follows record high temperatures in December, January and February around the globe and in the Arctic. The atmospheric warmth probably contributed to this lowest maximum extent, with air temperatures up to 10 degrees Fahrenheit above average at the edges of the ice pack where sea ice is thin, said Walt Meier, a sea ice scientist at NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland.

    The wind patterns in the Arctic during January and February were also unfavorable to ice growth because they brought warm air from the south and prevented expansion of the ice cover. But ultimately, what will likely play a bigger role in the future trend of Arctic maximum extents is warming ocean waters, Meier said.
    . . .

    Perhaps I should have bought a better air conditioner in October instead of the high-efficiency heater ... NOT!

    Bob Wilson
     
  8. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Our local weather reports are pretty good about showing cold air masses leading to storms and late season snows. But they magically show these cold air masses coming from the USA-Canadian boarder when in reality they come from the polar areas.

    So it has been relatively cool this Spring in North Alabama but every time I think about getting a sweater, I know ice did not freeze in the Arctic. The melt is on and starting at near record lows suggesting a long, open sailing window this year.

    As for Antarctica, the shores are now ice bound as they have been pretty much for every year. There is speculation about hydro-fracturing, the expansion of water freezing, might accelerate glacier and ice sheet break-ups. If so, we are probably leaving that window now that the ice wraps Antarctica.

    Bob Wilson
     
  9. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Source: Greenland sees record-smashing early ice sheet melt | Environment | The Guardian

    Almost 12% of Greenland’s ice sheet was melting on Monday, according to data crunched by the Danish Meteorological Institute (DMI).

    It beat, by almost a month, the previous record for a melt of more than 10%, on 5 May 2010.

    “We had to check that our models were still working properly,” Peter Langen, climate scientist at DMI, told blog Polar Portal.

    Temperature readings on the ice were in line with the numbers, however, exceeding 10C in some places.

    Even a weather station 1,840 metres above sea level recorded a maximum of 3.1C, which data analysts said would be warm for July, let alone April.

    That explains the cool Spring we've had in Alabama. Our warm weather went North.

    Source: NOAA Arctic Theme Page - A Comprehensive Arctic Resource

    NSIDC has suspended daily sea ice extent updates until further notice, due to issues with the satellite data used to produce these images.

    Spurious data from one of the satellite channels which provides inputs to the sea ice retreival algorithms is resulting in erroneous estimates of sea ice concentration and extent. The problem was initially seen in data for April 5 and all data since then are unreliable, so the NSIDC has chosen to remove all of April from NSIDC’s archive.

    Transitioning to a different satellite will require a careful calibration, and NSIDC has no firm timeline on when it will be able to resume providing the sea ice time series.



    Bob Wilson
     
    #29 bwilson4web, Apr 14, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2016
  10. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    I have read that this Greenland melt is not (yet) larger than in recent years, but that it has happened earlier - does that sound about right?
     
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  11. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Yes but it is worse (or better depending upon your point of view of the NorthWest passage.)

    The sea ice between Baffin and Greenland is already thin and showing evidence of gaps. The southwest coastal area is impacted by this early warming. Understand we're talking over 30 days early so there is still a chance of a refreeze but growing thick ice is very unlikely.

    The other interesting area is Bering Sea and North coast of Alaska. The EU (German) sats are showing an earlier break-up than last year. This is bad news for the native people as the marine mammals are going to be further away from shore.

    The Northeast passage is starting way advanced in the West and the Bering Sea area is already weak. However the area between looks pretty solid . . . so far.

    Bob Wilson
     
  12. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Could we make this unconflated? Puddles in Greenland and Arctic Ocean ice are different things.
     
  13. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Hummmm, let me think about it:
    • Tidal Ice - this would cover the ice I'm interested in
    • Ice Over Tidal Waters - a more verbose version
    • Salt Water Ice - a little more expansive but since very little salt water is not tidal . . . if the Great Salt Lake, Dead Sea, or Saulton (sp?) Sea freeze over
    • Tidal And Adjacent Land Ice - this works and includes Greenland
    • 75N and 75S Ice - I need to double check but I'm pretty sure this is close enough
    Bob Wilson
     
  14. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    UK has a new polar research vessel that is unlikely to get named as desired by 'the internet'

    Boaty McBoatface may not be name of new polar research vessel | Environment | The Guardian

    I would hope to be less grumpy in such a circumstance. This (like all marine research vessels) is not cheap. Taxpayers ultimately paid for it, and those who felt like expressing their opinions did so. Because they were invited. Next time they are asked to fund a large project, I'll not be surprised by some backlash.
     
  15. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    The Arctic melt season is looking 'strange' this year. We're seen open water patches way too early:
    • Bering Sea
    • Alaska-Canadian Arctic shore
    • Western edge of Hudson Bay
    • Baffin Island-Greenland breakup
    • Western side of NorthEast Passage hugely open
    Bad news for polar bears.

    Bob Wilson
     
  16. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Source: Arctic Sea Ice News and Analysis | Sea ice data updated daily with one-day lag

    NSIDC has suspended daily sea ice extent updates until further notice, due to issues with the satellite data used to produce these images. The vertically polarized 37 GHz channel (37V) of the Special Sensor Microwave Imager and Sounder (SSMIS) on the Defense Meteorological Satellite Program (DMSP) F-17 satellite that provides passive microwave brightness temperatures is providing spurious data. The 37V channel is one of the inputs to the sea ice retrieval algorithms, so this is resulting in erroneous estimates of sea ice concentration and extent. The problem was initially seen in data for April 5 and all data since then are unreliable, so we have chosen to remove all of April from NSIDC’s archive.

    It is unknown at this time if or when the problem with F-17 can be fixed. In the event that the sensor problem has not been resolved, NSIDC is working to transition to another satellite in the DMSP series. Transitioning to a different satellite will require a careful calibration against the F-17 data to ensure consistency over the long-term time series. While this transition is of high priority, NSIDC has no firm timeline on when it will be able to resume providing the sea ice time series. For background information on the challenges of using data in near-real-time, see the ASINA FAQ, “Do your data undergo quality control?

    The reason I mention this is the initial arctic sea ice maps show more Arctic sea ice coverage than the European and Russian maps. I have no doubt climate deniers will try to make claims about this knowing full well the data is suspect and two other sources show agreement.

    Source: Arctic sea ice set for record summer low | Environment | DW.COM | 21.04.2016

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Bob Wilson
     
    #36 bwilson4web, May 1, 2016
    Last edited: May 2, 2016
  17. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Conventional thought prevails, and Boaty McBoatface will be but a small submarine deployed by RRS David Attenborough.

    DA could settle all this by changing his name, but I know of no such plans.
     
  18. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    All of this draws my attention to Sir David Attenborough, now 90th birthday, approaching end of days. Such a bright light. If you've learned more from him about how the earth works than from your school teachers, now might be a good time to say so. If you feel so moved, use BBC or Princeton University Press as email pass through.

    He never hit the carbon cycle very hard, but even so I fancy that hybrid-car buyers might write something worth reading.
     
  19. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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  20. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Always interesting to see applied science: Have scientists found the cause of Greenland's ice melt? - CSMonitor.com

    A new study published in Nature Communications focuses on the effects that rising temperatures and changing albedo have had on Greenland. The researchers concluded that, among other possible causes such as tropical weather and latent heat, a phenomenon known as Arctic amplification could be the cause behind melting ice.

    Arctic amplification explains the perpetuation of melting ice in the poles: As the Earth has heated up and melted ice, darker spots in the ocean that are uncovered by the loss have absorbed more solar radiation, further warming the sea and maintaining the cycle. The warmer waters could also balance more evenly with waters farther south, impacting the speed, intensity, and consistency of the jet stream, which in turn could bring hotter air farther north.

    Source paper: Arctic cut-off high drives the poleward shift of a new Greenland melting record : Nature Communications : Nature Publishing Group

    Large-scale atmospheric circulation controls the mass and energy balance of the Greenland ice sheet through its impact on radiative budget, runoff and accumulation. Here, using reanalysis data and the outputs of a regional climate model, we show that the persistence of an exceptional atmospheric ridge, centred over the Arctic Ocean, was responsible for a poleward shift of runoff, albedo and surface temperature records over the Greenland during the summer of 2015. New records of monthly mean zonal winds at 500hPa and of the maximum latitude of ridge peaks of the 5,700±50m isohypse over the Arctic were associated with the formation and persistency of a cutoff high. The unprecedented (1948–2015) and sustained atmospheric conditions promoted enhanced runoff, increased the surface temperatures and decreased the albedo in northern Greenland, while inhibiting melting in the south, where new melting records were set over the past decade.

    Bob Wilson