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Prime or Tesla 3

Discussion in 'Tesla' started by jack520, Apr 15, 2016.

  1. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Traitors ! ! !

    .
     
  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    there's a car for everyone, except those without licenses.
     
  3. Felt

    Felt Senior Member

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    Hill - Traitor?

    I think not .... I own and really enjoy a 2015 Toyota Avalon hybrid. Terrific car. I consider myself "brand loyal."
    But I'm thinking I need an EV (town car) to complement my TAH (road car). Toyota appears to be disinterested in the EV (except as a hydrogen fueled vehicle).

    And that is part of my dilemma. I feel Toyota makes one of the finer vehicles on the road in terms of quality, ride, comfort, fuel efficiency and value. But personally, (and I don't think I am alone), in addition to the lack of an EV, I dislike for the looks of the new Prius.
    Toyota wanted to make a "statement," unfortunately for me, I don't like the looks of the "statement." But to each his own.
     
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  4. mozdzen

    mozdzen Active Member

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    I feel the same way. Ever since my 85D, I've become more and more addicted to ev driving. The PiP is a gateway car to EV addiction.
     
  5. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    agreed! i'm starting to become jealous of bob wilsons new i3.:oops:
     
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  6. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    aw c'mon now - that little character on the post ? with the tongue ripping thru it's cheek ? symbol for comment known as "tongue & cheek ? meaning not serious at all, but rather humor ? So of COURSE i understand. We too, have an alternate hybrid, the Lexus AWD suv. It's baffled me for years why Toyota didn't beat mitsu to market with a plug-in hybrid SUV. That's the frustration that lead to our getting on the Model X wait list. So yes it's understandable.
    .
     
    #146 hill, May 29, 2016
    Last edited: May 30, 2016
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  7. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i still say they don't see it as a profit center, for now, and foreseeable future.

    they're probably looking at tesla and saying, 'good for them', glad it's not us.
     
    #147 bisco, May 29, 2016
    Last edited: May 29, 2016
  8. Redpoint5

    Redpoint5 Senior Member

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    It's more like all other car companies have painted themselves into a corner. The dealership model is not sustainable when cars no longer need regular maintenance. Traditional vehicle manufacturers have to keep their dealerships in mind when they consider their vehicle portfolio, but Tesla has no such concern.

    I expect the traditional model will be unprofitable in the near future.
     
  9. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Cost? They probably didn't see a market for an expensive PHEV SUV. I mean, look at the HiHy's prices. Now snap on a PHEV battery. Oof! You're in X5/GLE-Class territory.
     
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  10. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    this is all just pie in the sky talk from people who want something, but don't want to pay for it.
     
  11. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Cost? ... last I checked, there were still over 35,000 folks w/ $5k down, waiting to get their awd Model X SUV's built. Cost therefore doesn't seem to be the barrier. Now if the suv needs to be cheaper for many - Toyota does build SUV's smaller than the highlander. (but it's a shame a high end Lexus RX can't fill the bill to compete w/Tesla) You don't feel a plugin Rav4 can compete with Mitsu as to price, accessories? Ev range? Toyota seems to be able to squeeze 22ish ev miles out of the 4 seat prime - so couldn't Toyota get even more ev range in a small suv platform? Especially if a Mitsu Outlander can.
    .
     
  12. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    California has already enacted an carbon tax as of 1-Jan-2015, and they decided to send the invoices to the oil companies directly so that the extra tax does not appear on the gasoline receipt at the pump. Thus it anyone's guess how much this is costing consumers. This is in addition to the Fed+State+Local taxes at the pump. But this is probably part of the reason that CA gaso prices are even higher now compared to rest of USA.
     
    #152 wjtracy, May 30, 2016
    Last edited: May 30, 2016
  13. Redpoint5

    Redpoint5 Senior Member

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    All costs end up in the price on the receipt. There is no such thing as free shipping, free parking, or a free lunch...

    I'm not directing this comment to you personally, since you mention that the cost is passed on to the consumer, but I'm just reiterating the point for those who still believe in the fantasy of free.

    How much tax per gallon is CA invoicing the oil companies? The price paid at the pump is likely incremented very close to the extra cost to the suppliers.

    Where does the additional revenue go, and has that revenue been shown to be effective at mitigating the problem?
     
  14. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    Good questions. But it's a cap and trade program, so the future cost is unknown (depends on the market cost of carbon credits). But seems like somebody ought to be able to tell us 2015/2016 carbon credit cost and cents/gal gaso implied tax thus far. It had been estimated as low as 15 cents/gal, but is expected to ramp up fairly quickly.

    >>>Come on, one of you Green car authors reading here, give us the numbers in an article for InsideEVs or something like that...tell you what though, if I am living in CA I am gettin' me at least a Prius

     
    #154 wjtracy, May 30, 2016
    Last edited: May 30, 2016
  15. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    Cap n Trade is an awful system, barely better than doing nothing.
    The CO2 Fee & Dividend is much more even handed, transparent and effective as it cuts across manufacturers rather than picking out a single one or group.
     
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  16. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    how would that help politicians?
     
  17. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    You're comparing a BEV to a PHEV ;) Also, what you mentioned isn't cost. It's value. If Toyota came out with an RX PHV for the same cost of the Model X, you can be sure, people will still flock to the Model X. Those clients aren't looking for a Lexus PHV. They're looking for a BEV SUV. Last I checked, the Lexus ES has a nicer quality interior than the Model S at half the cost. And that's ok. It's a new technology and costs had to be reduced somewhere just like how the Prius started out with a modest interior. It's unfortunate it took 18 years before it upgraded its interior to reflect its price.


    I feel a RAV4 Prime can compete well with the Outlander PHEV. In Canada, cost might be an issue. A RAV4 Hybrid XLE starts at $34,715. A loaded RAV4 Hybrid Limited w/ Technology Package crests $41,000 before $1,595 PDI, other fees and sales taxes (5-15%). If I were to pick a province with 15% sales tax, a loaded RAV4 Hybrid will cost $49,533. :eek:. ($42,087 taxes in if you went with a base RAV4 Hybrid XLE). For reference, a base Volt will be about the same (it's $41,000 MSRP base price). Of course the Volt has a higher chance of coming in lower with GM offering incentives.

    So tell me who would pay more than $45,000 for a (hypothetical base) RAV4 Prime if it existed. In that province, incentives do not exist. In Ontario (13% tax rate), there's a rebate up to $14,000 so that'll help boost sales in that province. Quebec has rebates up to $8,500 (14.975% tax rate) and it still has $500 rebates for regular hybrid models. B.C. offers up to $5,000 (12% tax rate) and PEI up to $3,000 (14%, increasing to 15% October 1).

    Methinks Toyota should wait for a denser, more energy rich solution before hybridizing an SUV with plug-in capability. Let Mitsu be the first.
     
  18. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    wow that's too bad. Guess us Californians have it pretty easy with the extra state & fed incentives.
    But with California being the largest playing field for plug-ins, I guess maybe that's what I was most curious about. How would the 2 smaller suv's go, head to head. Sadly, I guess we'll never know.

    .
     
  19. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Yeah Ontario is our California. They're really pushing for EV/PHEV sales. They've taken over British Columbia as the green leader in terms of promoting "green vehicles". B.C. was the first to offer incentives on hybrids in the early-mid 2000s but have fallen behind Ontario and even Quebec.

    Well if Toyota can somehow package a decent sized battery in a Camry (say start beneath the rear seat and extend into the trunk where the spare tire would be), it could help with a lower centre of gravity and a decent sized trunk for a PHEV sedan. (compared to the 8 cu ft. in the Fusion Energi). Of course that means the fuel tank has to go somewhere else.
     
  20. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    you should have bought a rav4 ev and added an engine.