What I don't like about the Prius Prime

I am thinking the pending extension of CA green HOV stickers was already a "2016 given" for the autos, so that's why Volt and Energi are already up, perhaps lease companies picking up vehicles. Of course, Toyota would have also known new green stickers coming, and that explains pending release of Prime. Also though the longer list of states increasing incentives for Plug-ins may be helping.

Surprisingly I notice that PHEV sales have retaken the lead over BEV in California this year to date, which I had thought PHEV were down for the count there (due to better BEV HOV incentives).

 

a guy with a tundra drops into his local toyota dealer. he's looking for something a little more interesting, and he doesn't use the truck to haul anything. you don't think he will be interested to learn about prime? you folks are missing the forest for the trees. we're talking about a paradigm shift in vehicle buying here. don't tell me about other mfg.'s offerings, they've all missed the mark.

 

Yeah, remind me again - why is he more interested in the Prime than the LB? What's the paradigm shift that was raised the Prime's stock relative to the LB? What's the Prime's story, and why is it more compelling than that of competing PHEVs? And yes, competitors do exist - flatly claiming "they've all missed the mark" is a baseless assertion without describing the marks they miss that the Prime hits.

I'm not saying the Prime is for nobody, but it just seems to me its story is pretty narrowly cast in terms of suitable target audience.

 

Even if extended, I think California's HOV stickers for PHEVs will have less impact on their sales. This can even be so for BEVs. The Leaf, Volt, Tesla, and Energis were available nationwide from the beginning. Their competitors from that time were limited to a handful a states, if not just California.

Now, new plug in models aren't being limited to a few states upon release. California will remain a big market for plug ins, but not being the sole one means their policies don't influence all sales. The top five on InsideEVs Scorecard all are available nationwide.

 

Plug-in market is already limited to CA and a few other states with high incentives.
For Toyota, IMHO the only USA market Prime needs to reach is California.
There they are catering to commuters who want Plug-Ins qualifying for green HOV stickers.
Prime will get a share of PHEV market in CA. That's all Toyota proably needs.
Toyota are giving CA CARB and PHEV drivers what they want:
Min. 22 miles range and nice EV quality drive, sacrificing space is the norm for these vehicles.

If you wanna say Prime is not attractive to Volt buyers outside CA who want 50+ miles, or LB buyers who want 5 seats and big cargo space, I say Toyota is not trying to penetrate those markets with Prime.

 

So your stance is that the Prime is really just a compliance car?
I don't necessarily disagree, but it is against the hopes of many here.

 

Yes compliance car is what we got, and probably what Toyota wanted.
But it also competes favorably with Volt and FORD Energi ( as a "me too" version - not a Volt killer).
The PHEV market is defined by GM/FORD, whereas Toyota's definition (PiP) got voted down by CARB and PHEV buyers outside CA. But that's a very limited market, and probably one the autos have to take a loss to compete in.

I liked Tideland's recent characterization of USA plug-in market: go EV or go home. Toyota's staying home. And actually the USA is saying go EV or FCV or stay home. So Toyota going FCV and seeing if FCV + a few Prime can cost-effectively meet their legal obligations to CA. I guess the fallback is a future BEV if those former do not work out.

 

I don't think buyers outside California had much say on the PiP. CARB was against it, but they are mostly for hydrogen. The Japanese market was the big let down for Toyota in comparison to their expectations. Competing hybrid incentives there did not help the young plug in market though.

 

the prime story will be revealed with the car. get ready to have your socks knocked off.

 

Will the rear armrest actually be a sock washer?

 

maybe even better.

 

I'll give it a shot. I'll put PHEV buyers into two coarse categories, those putting priority on EV performance/range and those putting priority on an ultra-reliable car with PHEV capabilities. (I'm stuck between the two till decision time arrives.)

Toyota makes a solid car and the Prime will have a substantial audience for those in the second category. I don't know how big this market is, but it probably is big enough to make the Prime a success if all 50 states are marketed. The PiP certainly had a big enough following in the handful of states involved even with its short and intermittent EV range. It was not a performance leader, but it sure was trying to progress where a lot of Prius drivers wanted to go.

The worry is Toyota does not seem concerned in the least to compete for the first category of PHEV buyers, but is entirely dependent on reputation instead of value for the second category. Loyalty can be eroded when not rewarded with the best vehicles possible.

 

Well the +EV range category comes with sacrifice of 2nd row seat space. So I see second category as pretty big attraction for California commuters wanting HOV. Outside of CA, why bother with a plug-in at all? That would be the market that tends to like Volt cause they want to get almost totally off of gasoline...but Prime ought to allow fairly high% non-gaso too.

I would think Prime may do well in FL. You got the old folks like me, hanging around together. Hop in the Prime to go to the Mall or play golf, You can take 4 folks no kids in comfort in Prime. You might get 3 golf bags in the back, but don't expect to see out the back window. OTOH skip golf go to a pre-season ball game. Get a liftback if you want 3 golf bags,

 

I wouldn't disagree there, but I do think that comes very close to saying the Prime is for Toyota/Prius loyalists, which has been my position.

Umm, the car has been revealed, so we all pretty much know what there is to know on that score. What's left is price, and I know you've been fantasizing about how low they can go - but I doubt those fantasies are going to be fulfilled, for reasons already stated (mainly the need to maintain a fair premium over LB pricing). If indeed they do deliver a version of the Prime in the mid-20s as you hope, then yeah, they will have blown my socks off, and I would recommend the car to many (just not me).

As ever on this critical (I would say decisive) issue, we shall see. I've lost track - has there been any commitment on a date for that?

 

use sunday bags.

again, it is a prime, not a lift back. you see it as a plug in lift back, but a non prius driver will not.

 

As noted, the only thing left for me to learn here is price. What do non-Prius buyers' perceptions have to do with the price that Toyota will decide to set? A $24k car (which I believe was your prediction) is a $24k car whether I think it's a LB or not. Is there an important part of your argument that I'm missing?

 

as i said in post #292, it's just a guess. i think the only part of my argument that you're missing is the

 

All of those are very valid points (if you play golf?). I would point out that any prediction of Prime success (or not) also includes a hidden prediction of gas prices staying consistent.

 

I got FL relatives, snow bunnies in condos and some living full time near Aventura Mall.
My wife limits my trips to FL cause I like it to be honest.