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Toyota missed the mark for North America

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-2022)' started by plug-it-in, Jun 26, 2016.

  1. plug-it-in

    plug-it-in Active Member

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    After evaluating my options I upgraded from a Gen 2 to a Gen 4 Prius. While I considered waiting for the Prime the 4 seats and the low EV mileage turned me off.
    While the approximate 40 km EV range of the Prime may be sufficient for other markets but it will not be able to compete with the Volt, which offers 4 and a half seats and an 80km EV range in mm the US and Canada - unless it will be sold well below C$40k.

    What was Toyota thinking?
     
  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    congrats on your new gen 4!

    there's already a thread on what toyota was thinking, regarding the prime. i won't lay it all out for you, but if you can slog through the 1,000+ posts, you'll understand that they weren't thinking about you or me, and they weren't thinking about the near future.

    all the best!(y)
     
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  3. mmmodem

    mmmodem Senior Taste Tester

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    Considering that you still purchased another Toyota product. I think Toyota did just fine. If you really thought the Volt was the superior product, you would've purchased it. I don't know what Toyota was thinking but they earned my business with an 11 mile range PiP. I don't think people will have as much of an issue with a 4 seater and 22 EV miles versus my gen 1 PiP wit much shorter range and sold only in a handful of states. It's better in some areas and worse in others. It won't be perfect for everyone.
     
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  4. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Well the Volt is a compact car like the Hyundai Ioniq. The Prius is a midsize car. (although on the smaller side of midsize compared to the Camry/Accord/6/Malibu/Fusion etc).

    Toyota is marketing the Prius Prime as the most fuel efficient car (both gasoline and electric) so yeah while the Volt gets a longer range because of the larger capacity battery (just over 2x), its fuel rating is 106mpge (2.22Le/100km), 53 miles (85km) AER, 42mpg (5.6L/100km) gas only. This compares to the Prime's 120+mpge (1.96Le/100km), 22+ (35km) miles AER, TBD mpg but targeting 52mpg (4.5L/100km).

    In addition, the stuff that Chevrolet charges that is standard on the Prius Prime so there's value there.

    e.g.

    Driver Confidence II Pkg - $575 (auto high beam, FCW, LDA, low-speed auto braking)
    Adaptive Cruise Control - $1,375
    Wheel lock kit - $60
    Cargo Net - $70
    All weather floor mat - $145
    Illuminated Charge Port - $310

    So there's an extra $2,535 that you'll have to add to the 2017 Volt's base price of Cdn$38,390 if you want to compare similar equipment levels.

    The current PiP starts at $35,905. Given how aggressive the 2016 Prius was priced, I'm hoping the Prius Prime will be priced just as aggressively to push towards greater electrification (That and Ontario has some generous incentives but the Volt will get an extra $1,000 because of the 5th seat right off the bat). I'm guessing that's what Toyota will go for - lower starting MSRP. Their bigger competition won't be the Volt, it'll be the Ioniq PHEV because of Hyundai's aggressive pricing and competitive equipment levels.
     
  5. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    maybe. i'll take a proven winner, talk to me in ten years.
     
  6. cproaudio

    cproaudio Speedlock Overrider

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    Well, according to this article, the Ioniq has over 122 cu ft of interior space 2017 Hyundai Ioniq Makes North American Debut In Hybrid, PHEV And EV Flavors That would make it a full size.
     
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  7. ArtVanDelay23

    ArtVanDelay23 Member

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    After graduating from college, my first job was working for a major automobile manufacturer. Corporations conduct significant research and analyze the economic reasoning behind every engineering/design decision.

    Maybe Toyota prefers that customers purchase a Gen 4 over a Prime?
     
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  8. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    Yes Toyota has basically been slow on plug-ins, saying it is less profitable at the current time. The implication though is that is also less profitable for the other autos (GM, etc) and yet the others are taking a more pro-active role trying to advance plug-in offerings perhaps at the expense of immediate profits. However, I am personally more aligned with Toyota approach on it.
     
  9. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    That's ridiculous. (also, it's actually 119 cu. ft. for the Ioniq PHEV). By that admission, people who buy the Four and Four Touring are buying a LARGE Prius and those who bought a Two/Two Eco/Three/Three Touring bought a MIDSIZE Prius. Uh huh. Stupid EPA.

    Here's a snapshot from Hyundai's press material (I can't upload Word documents on PriusChat apparently)

    upload_2016-6-26_21-14-16.png


    I've sat it them at the NYIAS and at the local auto show. I would say it's a compact.

    The Ioniq PHEV has a total volume of 119.2 cu. ft., not 122 like the article. For comparison, the Prius is rated at 117-120 cu. ft. The Prime will obviously be small because of the reduction of cargo space.

    The odd thing is the rear legroom of the Ioniq is 2" greater than the Gen 4 Prius (similar front legroom so that's a wash). However, again, actually sitting in both cars, it feels more spacious in the Gen 4 than in the Ioniq. (My knees brush up against the front seatback in the Ioniq).
     
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  10. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    Looks quite identical to Prius volume specs including the 27 ft3 cargo by EPA ...a little more total ft3...
     
  11. Northeastern

    Northeastern Junior Member

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    the discussion as to what Toyota did right or wrong is very interesting... lifestyles dictate what works for most people
    currently own a 2012 PIP....was holding out for the second gen plug-in but since we are a two car family opted for a pre -owned low mileage 2013 Nissan Leaf.... Volt was too small for us along with two 75 lb dogs... the Leaf will be a bridge to a much longer range EV likely in 3 or 4 years. Since Newfoundland Winters average 25 F ( -5C) and summers average 72F ( 22 C) the battery should do fine.
    now I need to find a home for our 2000 Honda Insight....
     
  12. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Toyota appears to be extremely well positioned to deal with the upcoming range shift. 200-mile EV offerings will leave a void at the low-end that automakers will be eager to fill with plug-in hybrids.
     
  13. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    and don't forget the middle of the road buyers who are soon to be enlightened by the strategic positioning of previously unknown quantities.(y)
     
  14. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    IonIQ is interesting ...I must go back and read those threads, now that I know what Prime will probably look like. EPA Cargo spec of IonIQ PHEV is interesting, but we don't have the number yet for Prime. I wanna see IonIQ EU VDA cargo space specs before I say too much. Since they are both liftbacks, EPA seems to allow a "gray zone" which gives mfgs ability to split space between front/back with some freedom. I think Volt tries to claim low cargo space so they can have greater quote for living space. Others with plenty of space seem to be trying to claim more cargo space if they aren't worried about buyers critiquing "living space" specs (if its roomy who cares?).
     
    #14 wjtracy, Jun 27, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2016
  15. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    I'm trying to think if this will pose a bigger threat to the Prius than the Insight-II. It has a cheap interior like the Insight-II but the difference is that there's more equipment (standard and available) and it looks like Hyundai won't pull the same trick Honda did (like leaving out TCS/VSA on the base model and forcing buyers to get nav to get TCS/VSA.... or obvious corner cutting by leaving out a glovebox light, cargo light, driver's side visor and seatback pockets on the base LX).
     
  16. cproaudio

    cproaudio Speedlock Overrider

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    When both cars are released, I will test drive both. Ioniq looks good on paper. We'll see how it does IRL.
     
  17. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Yeah that's probably the best thing to do for anyone who's seriously looking at these vehicles. :)
     
  18. Felt

    Felt Senior Member

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    Wise counsel, but I am going to add the Tesla 3 to my 'wait and test drive' list. From all I have read, all three are somewhat in the same price range (I acknowledge the Tesla is an EV) ..... but that might work in my situation. The Ioniq will sell an EV, but Prius will not, so there are some 'apples and oranges' issues to consider. At this point in time, my mind is completely open to all three. Just waiting.
     
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  19. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i'm also going to drive the 200 mile chevy and leaf.(y)
     
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  20. Felt

    Felt Senior Member

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    I'd love to consider a domestic vehicle, but I am spoiled by the reliability of Toyota vehicles. Yes, there is a Korean vehicle on my short list as well as an American, but to be specific, I will not consider a GM product. The reasons are numerous, but just yesterday, my son got a $3500 bill to repair his late model (high milage) GMC. Repairs that are not covered by warranty.

    I have owned Toyota products for 25 years, and never spent a dime on repairs and have only paid for oil changes and tires. When I traded my 2010 Prius with 130,000 miles, I got the top figure on NADA's price book. They are hard to beat.
     
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