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A 5-seat Toyota Prius Prime is on the way

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-2022)' started by Tideland Prius, Jul 12, 2016.

  1. PriusC_Commuter

    PriusC_Commuter Active Member

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    Depreciation on BMWs is pretty steep, I believe you can find them in the upper $20k range by now.
     
  2. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    The has nothing to do with the new sales market and cannot be sustained.
     
  3. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    no doubt. just about anything with a battery.
     
  4. Prius Maximus

    Prius Maximus Senior Member

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    Yeah I know, but I was running out of different ways to complain about the same thing to Toyota.
     
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  5. PriusC_Commuter

    PriusC_Commuter Active Member

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    True, but I also assume more people lease BMW's and other luxury brands instead of buying them (due to depreciation, reliability, no maintenance, and wanting the latest model), and for those who are accustomed to shopping those brands the leasing rates are pretty reasonable for the i3.
     
  6. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i don't get how they can lease cheap and still have low residual. who's eating the cost?
     
  7. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

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    A large part of this is that the manufacturer gets to assume the $7,500 federal tax credit when a vehicle is leased, and this is reflected in lower lease payments. Not sure if some manufacturers additionally throw in only lease specific factory incentives.
     
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  8. cproaudio

    cproaudio Speedlock Overrider

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    5 seat Prius Prime is inevitable. Imagine if Toyota hadn't cut corners, spend all that R&D money on converting a Prius into a Prime (Using a Prius and its GVWR and replace cargo weight with battery weight) and go straight into R & D a proper 5 seat PHEV with flat trunk floors, they would have save millions and give its target audiences exactly what we want instead of second guessing and hoping we would accept a 4 seat Prius with a raised floor.
    Once a 5 seat Prime is released, the 4 seat Prime's resale value will tank. It's going to create a market of unwanted 4 seat prime.
     
  9. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    shows their non commitment to the plug.
     
  10. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Prius PHV delivered exactly what we want. Clearly, the lesson of what had been learned in the past still isn't well understood yet.

    Toyota observed the third-party augmentation efforts and monitored results closely. We knew a top electric-only speed of 100 km/h (62.1 mph) was realistic. We knew the traction-motor could deliver more if the battery possessed more power. We knew enough room existed in the cargo-area to hold increased capacity. Enhancement to the existing hybrid system is what people were demanding... and that's what was delivered.

    Turns out, the consumers shifted priorities. Fallout from the early plug-in vehicles made that obvious. Sales struggled. Some of us noticed and were thankful Toyota halted rollout plans, choosing to further study usage in established markets instead. Others made up their own excuses based on anecdotal evidence... most of which have now been disproven. Using that time to stay true to the affordable goal.

    You claim 5 seats and a flat floor is vital. How can you just dismiss what we get in the effort to achieve balance and affordability?

    Think about what the first 2 years of sales will reveal. That feedback is priceless. When the mid-cycle update comes and higher energy-density is available, will Toyota lower the floor or use that extra space to offer more EV miles? So far, the overwhelming request is more EV miles... not a flat floor.

    Additionally, how do you know that consumers won't prefer the faster 3.3 kWh charging rate? Being able to replenish the battery-pack in a shorter amount time is very nice. Getting more electricity from plugging in while at the grocery is a really big deal. You can't just disregard such an advantage. To achieve that though, space under the middle back seat was needed for the larger hardware.

    In other words, how do you know exactly what we want ?

    Lastly, how do you know Toyota isn't developing a dedicated plug-in hybrid? After all, they mentioned it in the past and even showed a prototype model.
     
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  11. cproaudio

    cproaudio Speedlock Overrider

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    Stop making excuses for Toyota or they'll never learn. They're driving their customers away to its competitors. Ioniq PHEV got it right so far with flat trunk floor, seats 5 and greater range.
     
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  12. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Really?

    Ioniq is smaller, has less power, and doesn't offer electric cooling or heating.
     
  13. cproaudio

    cproaudio Speedlock Overrider

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    None of that matters when someone is shopping for a 5 seat car.
    You can argue how great the Honda Odyssey is and it wouldn't matter if you need an AWD minivan. Your only choice is the Sienna.
     
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  14. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Who do you think Prius Prime is for ?
     
  15. cproaudio

    cproaudio Speedlock Overrider

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    Yeah, I know what the Prime is for but it's an incomplete package. Take the first generation hybrids for example, Insight, Civic and the Prius. MPG isn't everything. Insight had the best MPG but nobody wants because it only seated 2. Civic did a little because it was almost a complete package until people realize it's hybrid system sucks balls with unreliable batteries. Prius won out because it was the most complete package of them all. It's not perfect but it had the rooms, the reliabilities in both the engine and batteries. It was a dedicated platform and not a converted platform like the civic or the accord. People look at a Prius and knew it's a hybrid and wanted to run it off the road. You don't get that kind of notion without being the best in its class.
    Toyota knew they were going to make a hybrid and a plugin hybrid of the same car. They should have designed a platform that would accommodate both with the same capacity. Hyundai started out on the right foot with their Ioniq. It wasn't a converted platform. They knew they were going to make 3 different propulsion systems. They designed a platform that would accommodate all 3 with minimal space loss and no seating loss. Are the Koreans smarter than the Japanese or did they just use common sense?
     
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  16. bhtooefr

    bhtooefr Senior Member

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    It'll also depend on what state the vehicle's sold in.

    If the vehicle counts for CARB ZEV credits, they'll put more incentives in place (although that won't be lease-specific, but the numbers work out best for a lease for the customer, usually).

    If the manufacturer needs CAFE credits, they'll put more incentives in place.
     
  17. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Ironically, Toyota is doing the same thing now and that fact continues to be overlooked. The hatchback model of Prius is almost 13 years old. Any type of interior or exterior match would put it in the same "converted platform" category, especially with that being 3 generations.

    Making Prime stand out as different was an important goal. Yes, it shares some of the hybrid system, but clearly there's a very easy to see difference... the seating... the battery... the body. If it hadn't been given the "Prius" prefix, many would think of it as a distinct vehicle. If Prime gets 5th seat later, unique identification would have already been achieved at that point anyway. Goal fulfilled.

    People like standout traits, even if it means a tradeoff. RAV4 hybrid is selling well. Why? Efficiency is quite a bit less. Remember how many people in the past said they'd be willing to give up some cargo room for the sake of more EV miles?

    Also, keep in mind that winning formulas of the past don't necessarily deliver another success when repeated later. Think about how little competition Prius had back then. Having Prime standout from the regular Prius makes sense it this crowded market with a wide variety of choices.
     
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  18. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i don't recall anyone saying they would give up space for more ev, but there's a sucker born every minute. those people should have bought a volt and stayed out of priuschat.
     
  19. cproaudio

    cproaudio Speedlock Overrider

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    it's not a converted platform as no other Toyota shares the Prius platform. Gen 2, gen 3 and gen 4 are simply an evolution from the previous generation.
    Nothing against the Prime stand out from the regular Prius. From the outside, it's already got different looks. From the driver seat, it's got an 11" screen. What's wrong is making it 4 seats instead of 5.
    It's selling well because the passenger space is the same as regular RAV4 with better city mileage. Efficiency is quite a less than what? A Prius? So now we're comparing a liftback to an SUV? RAV4 actually10MPG higher city than the regular RAV4.
    No one ever said they're willing to give up space to get more EV miles. The PiP prototype had raised floor and people hated it. Toyota was able to develop the final PiP without losing trunk space. If people were OK with losing trunk space to gain EV miles, Toyota would have kept the raised floor in the PiP and increase the battery size. We would have a 10 EPA rated miles instead of 6. It would have done 20+ real world EV miles instead of the 13-15.
    It's working pretty well for the Prius until the Prime. They already made the Prime standout with different front end and rear end. No need to change the interior. Think of how many more Prius v Toyota would have sold if they brought the Prius+ over to the US. If they bought it over to the US, it gives us the choice of seat 7 people or have a spare tire. I want to make that decision instead of having Toyota make that for me.
     
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  20. drash

    drash Senior Member

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    As @bisco has said before its an incomplete package for you but not everybody. 97% of all US households has 3 or fewer people.

    Call me when the Ioniq PHEV is on sale. When is it suppose to be built? 2018? The Mazda Miata is enjoying a resurgence while nobody trashes the BMW i3 and that seats 4 as well. When I look at the Prime's back seats and then the i3's back seat, I'll take the Prime please.
     
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