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A 5-seat Toyota Prius Prime is on the way

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-2022)' started by Tideland Prius, Jul 12, 2016.

  1. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Your other comments weren't the easiest to follow, but ended up in agreement. These are the standouts:

    Prius has become mainstream. Prius is the basis of conversion. Prius is that platform.


    Not sure why you don't remember that. Perhaps your participation here and elsewhere was limited. It doesn't matter anyway. The point is that the market changed along the way and continues to...

    Look at the why the other plug-in offerings have struggled and how much pressure is building from traditional offerings. None have found a winning formula yet. So, we should want the continued push to try new things.

    Notice how different gen-4 is than gen-3. Why is that more than just what evolution would lead you to expect?
     
  2. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    And with a similar number of 3 or less households, 4 seats was a major detractor for the first Volt. Besides, households have extended family, friends, and coworkers. Along no middle seat for a child seat, the lack of the fifth seat meant taking a less efficient car for short outings, lunch with coworkers, when there is 5 people going.
    The Ioniq PHEV is scheduled for 2017, possibly spring. It will be the last of the three to arrive.

    The Miata's resurgence is selling 1000 cars in March to May. Going back to 2010, its best month was 1344 and worse 276. Its best year was 2006 with over over 16,000. It hasn't broken 10,000 a year since 2008. This is a lower volume car than the volt, and I really hope Toyota wants to sell more Prius Primes than Miatas in a year. Besides, the Mazda is a sports car, that sells less than the much more expensive Corvette, by the way. The non-sports car, two seater Insight sold much worse.
    Mazda MX-5 Miata Sales Figures - GOOD CAR BAD CAR

    Seeing how the i3 is a subcompact car, and the Prime likely midsize, I would expect the Prime to have more rear passenger room. I won't start doing a Spark to Prius comparison, but will take a quick look at the i3 to Prime. The i3 has a battery 2.5 times higher in capacity than the Prime's. The isn't a straight ICE or hybrid i3, but there is a Spark EV, and it doesn't lose space compared to the ICE model. The Sparks also only seat 4, that's probably a subcompact thing. Anyway, the i3 REx doesn't lose space for the range extender.

    Despite being a much larger car with a smaller battery pack than the i3, the Prime seats the same number of people as the BMW, and loses cargo space compared to the Prius.
     
  3. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Leaving out vital information paints a misleading picture.

    Only 4 seats was a major detractor of Volt for the initial rollout. After people discovered the other seating shortcomings (leg & head room in back, along with the low windows), it shifted to minor... and stayed that way... which is why gen-2 of Volt still doesn't offer seating for 5 people.

    The arguments about family & friends fell short anyway. People simply don't like cramming 3 across. It doesn't work for adults in vehicles of that size... which is why larger vehicles like Camry remain popular.

    In other words, it's not the big deal you make it out to be.
     
  4. Eug

    Eug Swollen Member

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    Good to hear about the possible mid-cycle update for the Prime to include 5 seats. Yes, the 4 seats is a big deal. In fact, it's a complete deal-killer for me. I won't even consider it. The high trunk platform is a big annoyance too, but is not a deal-killer.

    In the context of a 4-seater Prius Prime, I'd just buy a regular Prius, or else something else completely.

    It seems the 5-seater may not come for a few years, which is fine by me, since I bought my Plug-in just in 2015 (a 2012, used), just because I had to buy a car. My 2004 got smushed in an rear-ender. My main issues with this car besides the limited electrical range and the gentle touch required to keep it in electric are the fact that the navigation sucks and it doesn't have the nice 360 degree camera setup and safety features that our RAV4 Hybrid has, even though it has the top-of-the-line options for 2012. The trunk hump is annoying too, but not a deal-killer. Oh and the lousy heater and mediocre AC. As for the navigation, I'm starting to wonder if I wouldn't just be better off with Apple CarPlay. It's not rated to be that great, but Toyota's interface and navigation has been worse up to now. Maybe they'll surprise me with the Prime, but I'm not optimistic.

    Sooo... both the PiP and the new Prime still seem like afterthoughts to me, and as I alluded to above I haven't decided if I'll get another plug-in. Ontario is pushing EV support hard recently, but it seems most of the chargers won't be where I go the most, and installing a home charger is still more expensive than I'd like even with the government rebates. (I'm currently using a 120 V Nissan Leaf portable charger that I bought on eBay. It's mounted on a post near the house, while I keep the original Toyota charger in my trunk for charging at other locations.)

    The worst implementation though IMO might be the Prius v. It's built for 3 rows, but in North America it has two rows, but with the legroom limitations of 3 rows. Worst of both worlds.

    Well, in North America, it was much less time as a sedan. And many of us were annoyed with it because the rear seats didn't even fold down. I went with the 2004 as soon as it came out. It was just so much more practical than the original sedan. The main draw for me for that 2001 Prius was that it used a totally new advanced technology, and it had awesome government tax rebates. But I didn't actually recommend the car to others. I didn't start doing that until the Gen II.
     
  5. inferno

    inferno Senior Member

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    5-seats is huge to me too. I would cram 3 adults back there for 5 miles if we were going out to eat. It is so versatile!

    And I agree on the point of the Prius V, why did the US get gipped? We are building bigger Hybrid cars that only seat 5? Wth?

    And the Prius is a midsize car where I think the Volt is smaller...it makes sense to take advantage of the backseat.

    I for one am looking for the right Plugin car. The original PiP is close and I don't know why it got such a bad rep...

    Supplies were limited, prices never dropped to compete really with the Volt (the Volt was cheaper after incentives)...and it actually sold very well especially in CA because of the stickers. I'm seeing a lot of PiPs in the road. Doubling the range is a great idea, but not at the expense on the other parts of versatility!

    Now if Toyota can say the batteries are hot-swappable for less heavy Lithium Air batteries - then awesome...the Prime could be easily programmable, get more range and perhaps even a higher MPG rating, how could would that be?

    And damn, where's the solar roof. Come on - a 22 Mile EV could actually be faked as 24-25 mile EV in a sunny day!
     
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  6. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    What else could it be?

    The nature of the design is to take advantage of the existing hybrid system. You can only do that afterward.

    A dedicated platform only makes sense with much larger capacity... and that market has yet to prove itself for mass acceptance.

    Prime can leverage off of the existing Prius to grow sales, bringing Toyota closer to that goal of phasing out traditional vehicles.
     
  7. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    And who is leaving out information about the Volt's current seating?

    I didn't think the Volt having 4 seats was a big deal when it came out. That view is buried in those threads. I do acknowledge that the 4 seats did cost the car some sales, particularly amoung families that wanted to put the child seat in the middle rear. Because of that GM did put a fifth seat into the new Volt. It should be labeled a plus one seat, because it only works for children on but the shortest trips, but it is there. GM heard potential customers saying they won't even look at a car with four seats, and offered them solution. The layout may still not work out for some, but now they will look at the car instead of walking past it.

    Which is one of the reasons it is a bigger deal that the Prius Prime has only 4 seats. Plenty was written and said about the 4 seats of the first Volt. Toyota can't claim to be ignorant to the fact that 4 seats would be seen as a negative by potential buyers. Another reason is that the Prius is a bigger car than the Volt with a smaller battery pack. I expected some cargo space loss with longer EV range. Seeing cargo loss and the loss of the fifth seat was surprising.

    One of the design goals of the PiP was too minimize the loss of the hybrid's functionality to the plug in components, and it appears like the Prime's is to maximize that loss.

    With the info we have now, I'd say that Toyota was focused more on the home market. In addition to shorter average commutes, many homes only have 100W 6amp electric service in Japan. This means level 2 charging is not possible at home, and level 1 takes longer than it does in the North America. The means the PiP, with its smaller battery and shorter EV range, was a better fit for the typical car buyer there.

    The Prime gets a bigger battery, but its size might be the largest these households with limited electric can reasonable charge in a day. I think 10hr charge time was mentioned in the Prime test drive thread. This makes the solar roof a better value in Japan. The few miles it could potentially add during the day is a bigger chunk of time not needed to charge. The solar system has a NiMH battery for buffering though. Being about the size of the hybrid pack, it likely is sitting under rear seat like the hybrid's.

    So the Prime loses cargo space and a seat for all those batteries and support equipment. With average family size being a little smaller in Japan than in the US, the four seats becomes an easier sell.

    Which leaves the Prime handicapped for the North American market. We get the drawbacks of the solar system, without the option for the car. I agree with Toyota that the solar roof would be too pricey for here. I disagree with focusing on the home market though. Toyota expected to sell twice as many PiPs in Japan as in the rest of the world in the car's first year. They sold more in the US, and sold nearly double here of what they sold in Japan by the end of the model's run.

    Perhaps the Japanese market has changed enough that the Prime could do better there now. Incentives for plain hybrids are no longer in play.
     
  8. Eug

    Eug Swollen Member

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    The range is OK for me. I asked for 40 km (25 miles), and almost got that. While I might appreciate 50 km, I have no interest in getting a 300 km range electric car.

    It's not the range, but the other stuff that annoys me. I've been there, done that. I bought the 2001 Prius because it was interesting, but weird decisions on its design for the North American market made it impractical for me, so I got rid of it sooner rather than later. For the Prius Prime, yes it's interesting but getting a car with only 4 seats and less cargo space for much more money than the regular Prius just seems like a waste to me. I may as well spend less money on something else, whether it's a Prius or another car. And yes, these days I'm open to non-hybrids too.

    Who, knows though. Maybe the 5-seater Prime will come with an AWD option too. If it does, I'm sold! I highly doubt it though, given how strapped Toyota seems to be with physical space in the Prime. The other factor though is how good the PHEV incentives here are in 2018 or whatever. We shall see.
     
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  9. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Geez! Even GM doesn't call that legless spot in the middle a 5th seat.

    It boils down to audience. The same mistake is being repeated. We're hearing the one-size-fits-all arguments again.
     
  10. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    And that is why we see so many 7-passenger SUVs/crossovers because "oh what if grandma/grandpa want to come along?" scenarios. Yes because they have the flexibility of a young person to sit in the 3rd row of an SUV.

    What? The 2nd row can slide fore/aft and has plenty of legroom. I've ridden in the back of a number of Prius v taxis.
     
  11. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    it's definitely an afterthought, not purpose designed. it will work for some and not for others. i would like to embrace her, but i'm keeping an eye out for other girls.
     
  12. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    If they don't call it a seat, then where is the fifth passenger the Volt can carry sitting?
    2017 Volt Trims: Premier - LT | Chevrolet

    One that wants only four seats is not a mainstream one.
    The Volt has 53 miles of EV range. Loses some cargo space, and an adult size fifth seat.
    The C-max Energi has a 21 mile range. It loses 6 cu.ft. or some of cargo space, but keeps the full fifth seat.
    The Prius Prime has 22 miles of EV. Compared to the Prius 2 Eco, it loses nearly has much cargo space as the C-max. Then on top of that, it completely loses the fifth seat.

    It isn't a question of one size fits all. It is a question of how the Prime's layout can be so subpar, and it wasn't even Toyota's first PHEV. It's like Toyota's take away from the experience of the PiP wasn't that people wanted more EV range, but that they wanted more EV range with less cargo space and passenger seating.
    With four seats in the Prime, they are more likely to take that SUV/minivan.
     
  13. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    That isn't the point. I'm making the same point that john1701a did. It's the sense of "well I gotta cover every single possible scenario" so I will buy a Hummer because.... zombie apocalypse.
     
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  14. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    it's just a small market segment. otherwise, more people would be building 4 seaters. every takeaway limits sales. every enhancement increases sales. that's just the nature of supply and demand.
     
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  15. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    And how is wanting a middle rear seat for a kid seat of the same level as wanting a minivan for a family of 3 or 4WD because a person might have to park in a soccer field?

    I didn't see the big deal about the gen1 Volt only having 4 seats. I personally don't need that many. My concern would be how well the center arm rest holds up to dogs and cats. But people have kids and grandkids, and going from a rear bench to two bucket seats cuts into the potential market for a car. Some posters here have already set that 4 seats simply will not do for them.

    To take it the other way, most cars are only carrying a single person, so why not take the rear seat out completely.
     
  16. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Actually that's probably the reason why Car2Go is popular here. They're smart fortwos - perfect for commuting or going down to the shops.

    There's still the option of renting. Yes I know it's an extra cost and there's the hassle of going down to the rental company to pick up the vehicle.

    The idea is buying the vehicle for the job. If you need it, great! Like you said, some people actually do regularly carry 7 people (by regularly I mean at least once a month or once every two months). Their families are close knit so there's always trips/visits to the grandparents or brothers/sisters and they have kids etc etc. And of course their kids are involved in extra curricular activities which require ferrying people and sports gears or musical instruments.

    Frankly, anyone who looks at a Volt or a Prime and wants more seats should probably look at the Pacifica. At least one company is thinking about larger families.
     
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  17. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    yeah, but they don't really want to be left stranded on the side of the road. or have 5 recalls like 500e fiat.
    let's face it, prime, cmax and volt are nice little cars for what they are, but their sales numbers are not going to grow dramatically, even when gas prices increase.
    hopefully, all the technology will lead to more desirable plug ins, down the road.
     
  18. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    For a family with young kids, the Volt will likely work better. I don't see 4 seats as a big deal, but people that would prefer to put their kids in the middle rear seat has shown me that it is better for sales for a car to have that seat. Even a token seat works along the lines of Burger King's veggie burger. It is there to head off the veto vote; the vegetarian in the lunch group, or the parent that wants the middle seat for the kid.
     
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  19. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    and you'll have it. in a few years... but will i get a flat hatch? that's the really important question.:cool:
     
  20. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

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    It's about choosing the right vehicle for the right job. 2-seater Insight, 4-seater Prime, 5-seat typical modern car, 7+ seater SUV, 2+ seater truck, different combos...

    Sure, tons of folks don't get it. All those solo commuters in trucks and SUVs on the road. A huge portion of those guys have another family vehicle at home - very often another truck or SUV. No reason why at least one of the commuters in the household can't go with a 2 or 4 seater efficient vehicle. It will add next to no inconvenience for them.

    Not saying the market follows a great deal of logic. Customers are typically more interested in their own $ and convenience and buying a vehicle that has way more capacity than they use 95% of the time for the rare "what if" scenarios.