2012 Prius Plug-In Product Info (pdf)

Once you get a taste of EV, you want more, more range, etc.

My commute is 17 miles each way, 34 round trip. If I can't plugin, then a 35-40 mile EV range would be handy, wouldn't it? The ideal PHEV would have 25-40 miles of EV range, and get 45-50mpg when that AER is gone. May not be possible with todays battery technolgy, but a vehicle like that, many would not even consider a full EV, as this would fit most people just fine, and allow most of their commute and local trips to be all electric, without any range anxiety of running out of juice. BTW, the only advantage to the Volt is this very thing, 35-50 AER, depending upon tempature, speed, and many other factors.

 

I agree entirely. I read about one hour ago something either you posted or maybe another PC member about a conversion kit of 6.1Kwh good for 25-30 miles for $12,500.00 dollars, nice but expensive. I think Toyota and maybe all manufacturers should offer 2 sizes of batteries on every car.

I have not owned 2 cars at once due to the amount of driving I do, but my plan is to first get the Prius PHV and look at a Tesla Model S about one year later. The base Model S will have 160 miles for about 50-55K.

 

Yes, I posted those links to PICC and EWERT energy. I just wish the Toyota engineers would have looked at that system very closely, as I'm sure they could have learned a few things from the EWERT brothers HEM. I'm sure its just a case of "NIH" (Not Invented Here), they are too proud to look at what others have done with even their Generation 2 hardware.

Yes, I was considering (and still am) my decision, and the Tesla looks great to me, the issue is, the 300 mile "Signature" series are what's scheduled to be delivered starting in mid 2012 (1,000 of them), those are the base price of $49,500 + another $20-30K for the 300 mile pack, and the real "options" that most will get, you are looking at a realistic $80-90K Model S, if you really want one in 2012. For the 240 and 160 mile pack versions, you would be lucky to get one in 2013 or 2014... Note: to get "in line" for a 300 mile "signature" Model S, you also need to put down a $40K deposit as well. The Model S is not your average persons econobox, in fact, I would say you have to be fairly well off to afford one.

 

That's a midsize 616 lbs lighter than a compact. Imagine what Volt would weight if it were a midsize.

 

Its an interesting thought thinking of battery weight in terms of multiple 4.2kwh packs.

Perhaps the ultimate answer would be to make them modular and add in as many were needed to meet the needs of the customer (like the battery options on the Model S).

 

Yep, I did read your post and the article. I think Toyota's hesitation is that, they are not as comfortable with Li-on as they are with Nimh. I do give Toyota credit though, because a few years back, they were testing larger batteries in the Prius when they were sued for using large format Nimh supposedly owned by GM/Ovonics/Texaco/Chevron, and restricted to using small size Nimh batteries, then production of the RAV4EV was also stopped.

 

Oh I an aware of the history of the last generation of EVs, and how GM (again) was responsible for ultimately delaying EV adoption another 12-15 years. Again another reason we can't take GM and the Volt too seriously, when will they abandon this group of customers (notice how carefully I chose those words, not 'if', but 'when')

GM would probably prefer this generation of EVs fails as well, so they can get back to their core business of selling gas guzzlers until there no more gas to run them

 

Your probably right about their current generation of EV and EV "pluses". But there will always be gas, it just depends on how much you'll be willing to pay for it. Reading Exxon-Mobil's last 10k reports they found no new oil deposits since December 2010.

 

We are WAY way off-topic, but gasoline and oil are a finite resource, at some point it will not be economically viable to extract it any more. When the energy expended = the energy gained, game over. Not going to argue peak oil with you, but the writing is on the wall. It's not just gasoline either, oil enables our very way of life, from food (fertilizer), to packaging (plastics), to roads (asphalt). It's going to change the entire world when it finally ends. If we can even survive it, which isn't clear we can, hopefully it happens sometime in the distant future, estimates are 20-40 years... Not nearly far enough away for me.

 

What are the features / technologies that PICC and EWERT energy introduced in their plugin conversion that is not in the production version of Prius PHV?

 

70MPH pure electric, multilple "blended" modes, where EV can be heavily favored while the ICE is kept near operating tempature and spins to prevent overrevving, and is instantly available. They also manage to get 6-8KW of lithium in the space that Toyota is getting just 4.4KW of pack

Like I suggested, Toyota could have picked up a few tricks and tips by looking at what most agree is the best done Prius PHV conversion to date.

Just Sayin

 

Electricity is relatively simple to produce but difficult to store. Hydrocarbons are simple to store but difficult to produce, other than oil which is running out. A vehicle which burns a small amount of what will become very expensive liquid hydrocarbon of some sort along with frequently recharged electricity from the grid may well be the car of the future. The Prius PHV might be the prototype of this car.

A large and heavy battery is not compatible with this car. It will require too much of this very expensive liquid hydrocarbon if there is to be any non local driving. That is the other possibility, little or no individual intercity driving and all individual driving being local. In that case, the pure EV may be one of the best solutions. But that may not be an easily achieved goal with present thinking.

In the short term, we can select from the available choices. But successful car makers do think in the longer term and we may be on that cutting edge.

 

To be fair, the Prius V already includes the Homelink mirror and leather, which accounts for some of the $2.5k. And to make up for LKA, APGS, and big wheels, they added the HUD, power driver's seat, and the HDD navigation with a bigger screen. The Advanced package also appears to add a bunch of Entune apps - "Entuneâ„¢ Plug-in Hybrid Applications include Charge Management, Remote Air Conditioning System, Charging Station Map, Vehicle Finder and Eco Dashboard". And maybe those exceed the value of the lost features, and account for more of the $2.5k.

On the other side though, the base PHV already has navigation, while the base Five does not.

And in general, the more you pay for a product, the greater the percentage the manufacturer gets to keep for profit. So there's definitely some of that going on too.

 

Not only you do void your warranty with conversions and correct me if I am wrong, they only offer about 3 years of warranty. If Toyota put an 8Kwh battery in the Prius and charges an extra $10-12K, it still would not be enough for everybody and the Prius would likely have the same problem that the Chevy Volt is having; low sales.

The top of the line Prius PHV could hit $50,000.00 dollars. People with short commutes will be forced to $buy more Kwh battery than they need. Even right now, some in the press compare cost of a similar size vehicle and spend the difference to buy a lot of gas, well, that is not energy independence. I am totally in favor of batteries to be offered in different sizes in Plug-in Hybrids and EVs.

 

I agree. But the reality is, most conversions are done after the Toyota 3 year/36K mile warranty is up anyway, and it isn't voiding the warranty, lookup "Magnusun-Moss".

I think Toyota could have learned from their control system as well, they manage 70MPH all electric in a Gen 2 Prius, and they have multiple blended options.

They also manage to get 6-8KW in the space where Toyota is getting 4KW, sure Toyota could have multiple packs sizes, my point is, 6KW and 8KW should probably be among them.

Also, it wouldn't cost Toyota 12.5K to do it, or offer the option, thats the retail on that PHV conversion. Batteries are getting cheaper and smaller, and denser, so it should be able to happen eventually.

 

I have no doubt in the least that the plug-in will be sold with different battery pack sizes in the future -- and probably a not so distant future.

That said, it is not so simple as stuffing a few more cells into the trunk like the aftermarket folks do. Toyota has to assure that the driving dynamics meet expectations, go through regulatory processes, and who knows what else. A buyer of an aftermarket kit has a very different expectation of their plug-in than an OEM buyer, not least the extended warranty provisions.

theForce posted a thread not too long ago mentioning that his aftermarket pack died after three years, but he just make it under the warranty period and received a new one. Not one person said "oh oh, packs do not last very long." Toyota does not have this luxury.

While bigger packs will slowly approach the cost of wholesale batteries as plug-in cars reach high volume sales, it is silly to expect anything of the sort now.

 

What is your definition of "lifetime" - is it 15 years ? After how many years do you think we will have to change the battery - say 8 years ? How much do you think a 10kwh battery will cost at that time (compared to now) ?

No - we aren't ignoring these questions. We have extensively talked about these at MNL and various other forums over the last 2 years. Welcome to the EV Club.

 

I thought 70 mph pure electric requires MG1 spinning the ICE (without any fuel burned). That's basically stealth mode.

Can the plugin conversion ensure ATPZEV emission, pass federal crash test and 10 years / 150k miles warranty?

I am just pointing them out because those are the extra parameters that Toyota has to work with.

 

Last I heard PICC was going through CA certifications, it's pretty expensive though, so not sure how far they got. With the PiP here soon, not sure what their future will be, the plug ins raise awareness as a positive, but they now have competition from the OEM as a negative.

My point is, Toyota could have learned a few things
from them, had they chosen to look at what's availble in the market with even their older Gen 2 hardware.

 

Don't forget there will likely be upgrade kits from those same third party providers to boost the PHV to higher EV performance levels for those so inclined.