I've done the dirty work of reading it So You Don't Have To. The "No" article is a dog's breakfast of all the tired old FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) arguments we've seen before. Don't bother giving their website more hits.

Richard:

Tell me about it!

I still didn't get the "point" - if there even *was* one - about the ani-hybrid rant. So better fuel economy is ... bad??

It "delays" transition to the "hydrogen economy" whatever the h*** that is?? Like how we're going to use fuel cells to create H2 from ... gasoline?

You can't get them worked on at a corner garage?? What new car with OBD2 and especially CANBus with proprietary stack extensions can be "properly" serviced outside a dealership??

The writer probably missed the boat on the hybrid scene - like GM did - and is now defensive. Good for a chuckle and a sad shake of my head.

Okay, I REALLY don't get this one-- (from the article)

My experience was that the Prius (a full hybrid) had excellent accelaration from a dead stop. It certainly takes off much quicker than my Tacoma. Does anyone else agree with this guy that Prius is too sluggish from a dead stop? Or is this guy just making stuff up?

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Mark:

Ummmm ... yes. Big time.

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Evan:

At least.

Maybe he gets paid to do that? Like a Creative Writing class??

Honestly.. I wouldn't say it is made up... as was mentioned before.. it is full of spook stories of what could be.

What he misses of course is a blaring flaw in his logic.. he says we should buy regular cars and wait for the hydrogen economy to come about. But where exactly does he believe this economy is going to come from? What would spur changes in auto technology if everyone is happy buying cars based on, as he says, 19th century technology?

I don't think I'm bursting anyone's dreams here when I say that the automotive industry isn't gonna make radical investments in new technology cause it is the right thing to do. Even if the people at the top believed it was, they have a large group of shareholders who are there to make money and they have to be appeased. They have and will follow the money trail (look at the changes of car sizes as a result of consumer reaction to higher fuel prices in the late 70's)... and the increasing sales of the available alternate fuel vehicles leaves a chum scent in the economic waters that leads down a path to eventually hydrogen-based vehicles. But if that path isn't greened out of our wallets now, the cows at the top of the auto industry won't pay it a moment's notice.

This guy really sounds like he wants to be perceived as an environmentalist... but doesn't actually want to give anything up.

Course it could just be that he is that kind of intellectual snob that feels deep down that disagreeing with popular conception makes him somehow smarter than everyone else.

Hello All,

Well, I read both articles and I think that we all have to remember one important fact. Like it or lump it, they both got published which as a writer myself I understand is a major coup.

Is article "A" the "Bad Hybrids" story accurate? No, not entirely. Yes, some hybrids do cost more than their dino bretheran. However, this is not exactally correct as, in the case of our beloved Prius there is no dino version to compare it to.

So, (this is going to require a leap of faith so stick with me folks for this analogy) that would be like trying to compare a Hummer in cost, reliability and appearance to something similar made as a hybrid.

Fact is, you can't do it with that beheamouth and you can't do that with the Prius either. The car is only a classed as a mid-sized sedan because they have not yet come up with a special catagory that would be just for us. I am confident that if things keep going the way they are there will be a juggling of the catagories in the not too distant future.

Not unlike what happened in the publishing world when JK Rowlings books all hit the top of the charts and all the other authors and publisher's had a fit that a "kids" book was ruling the bestseller's list for months at a time. I bet there will be a "hybrids only" catagory in the near future so that these vehicles will stop making the dino cars look so bad by comparison.

Do hybrids cause continued dependance on foreign oil? Yes, but so does just about everything else that you touch, use, wear, eat or watch in a day. Where do they think all the plastics come from? The Polymer Fairy?!

To accurately represent this argument you really need to just run the numbers and find that although the Prius does use gasoline as it's fuel source, with a maximum of 11.9 gallons consumed by one engine that is about 5 gallons less than my old stick shift Ford Ranger (gosh, I hated that car...) needed to also reach "full". And that 11.9 gallons allows a conservative 500 miles of driving on a tank with fuel still left in reserve. The Ranger got maybe 300 gallons before I was coasting on fumes.

Oh, he also mentioned that the Prius still needs "oil" in the engine. Assuming that you are using dino you are putting 3.5 quarts in at a change (right?) and average non-hybrid (read that much larger) engine requires almost twice that amount. And if you switch to synthetic, you change the oil even less and thus consume less.

As for the "Oh no, it won't go" story, I liken that to the boogyman. Something you use to scare the young and innocent (read that uninformed and ignorant) into compliance to your wishes.

I have read hundreds if not thousands of posts on this board and on others and have not run into that particular scenerio. Nope, not once. Sure, all cars have difficulties sometimes (haven't we all heard the sickening whir of the starter as it fails to catch when we are already late for something important) but these cars are so highly engineered and in general so well maintained that there are darned few problems that arise.

Can you take your hybrid to Joe-at-the-corner for repair? Yes and no. For oil changes, brake pad replacement and tire rotation, Joe could be your man. For things that require more indepth investigation or repair Rick-the-Toyota-Master-Technician would be a much better choice.

This one is really a no brainer especially if you think of your car as a body and the mechanic as a doctor. Say you get sick (an unexplained knocking or a funny light on your dash) do you go to the corner Pharmacy and ask the Pharmacist to diagnose and fix your problem or do you call your MD?

Both are highly trained professionals, both work in the medical field, both deal with illness but only one is trained, licensed and experienced in the actual hands-on treatment of your ills. You value your health so why would you give yourself less than the best care available? You value your car, so the same questions apply.

Basically, I think that of the two articles the anti-hybrid version is actually the more valuable resource. It is much easier to disprove what he says for most people with minimal effort than it is to prove all the pro arguments.

Fact is that some people due to weather conditions, length of drive, driving style and other factors will never see the 50+ mpg most of us have or will achieve. But to say that the car NEVER does better than 48mpg is inaccurate at best and a down right lie at worst. Still, all you have to do is drive one yourself and you will find out the truth.

I did note that he said nothing, zero, zip, zilch, nada about safety where these cars are concerned. Pity, as I would have loved to see how he could explain away Car of the year for 2004 and European car of the year for 2005 with the highest safety ratings in that examinations history.

He also mentioned the increased cost over the non-hybrid version but failed to point out that you don't just get a different engine (or engines for the purists) for your money. Features like SKS, the NAV system, VSC and additional air bags should all be factored in here. These cars are highly engineered in all facets not just in how they use power.

Oh, and truth time here, how many people really use or need a bazillion horsepower motor? Most of the 4wd vehicles that I see on the road have never been off of pavement in their entire lives.

My only concern where speed is concerned is can my car accelerate fast enough to get out of the way of the idiot driving the Semi or the Hummer that is bearing down on me at the speed of light. The answer, at least with the Prius is an emphatic yes!

And I read somewhere (perhaps it was those black and white signs that dot the roadways across the land) that the speed limit in most areas does not exceed 75 MPH (65 here in suburban So. Cal. and 55 in the downtown Los Angeles area).

That said, in most areas that I drive, I would be hard pressed to be able to even meet the posted speed limit at most times of the day. And having a vehicle that can get from 0 - 60 in a nanosecond is really more of a liability than an asset as most of the other cars and drivers on the road can't and don't.

So, great you car is capable of high performance driving and you can give Mario Andretti a run for his money, but what are you going to do about Grandma Nellie who is merging into traffic at a blistering 38 MPH and riding the brake whenever she hits 40?

Last but not least he mentioned the fear that these cars will not hold their resale value. Well, when you consider that a 2001 classic with 100,000 miles on it is still selling in the 17,000 to 22,000 dollar mark I think resale should not be a problem.

Go ahead, show me another car, any other car, anywhere that can say the same. Even a used Ferrari loses more value than these cars have done in their 8 year life (5 here 3 in Japan).

I usually tell people that where my car is concerned, if you took the mileage out of the equation, this is still one of the best cars on the road.

Fortunately, the Prius or something like it is not going to be the car for everybody. Why fortunately? Because if everyone only wanted a car like this who would we sell all our old Ford's, Lincolns, GM's, Kia's and Camry's to?

Take care,

Tisza

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Tisza:

:lol: oh I was truly ROFL!

Actually, I lay awake at night dreaming of the Phenylisocyanate Fairy, but I'm a tad peculiar.

Tisza;

great post!! lots of excellent points made that we all know to be obvious... too bad the writer didnt read us a bit first, he may have said it wasnt possible to be negative about the Prius

Tideland Prius
"Then what do you call the Pontiac Fiero?"

LOL!

Check out this Fiero:
http://greenplanet3.org/ev/

Hats off to anyone who can make that kind of investment of time and money.
Interesting site.

Hi All,

Well, I just finished looking at Consumer Reports top 10 picks and discovered (not surprisingly) that the Prius is high on the list.

What was a little surprising was that it now has its very own catagory "Green Car". I stated in my above response that I believed it was only a matter of time before this would happen. But I never dreamed that a scant one day later this prediction would come to pass. Now if I could just predict those pesky lottery numbers...

Check out the list at ConsumerReports.org

Have a great weekend all!

Tisza

Who wants cake?