Anticipated price for 2012 PHV prius?

Please excuse if this topic has been discussed before, but for many of us that are thinking about waiting for the PHV Prius, or deciding to get a non-PHV (now)....a major factor in this decision is what the price might be for the PHV?

I've read quite a few articles talking about what the price might be, and the best estimate I've been able to find is that the PHV version of the Prius will be somewhere around $8K-10K (before any Federal incentives, ~$2.5K) more than a comperably equiped non-PHV Prius. Even if I assume the lower estimate of $8k, and subtract off the Federal incentive of $2.5K, that's still (at least) $5.5K more than what I can buy a Prius for today.

If this number is correct, that will take many, many years to pay back the energy savings difference...assuming the figures of about 50 mpg for the non-PHV and around 75 mpg (Toyota figues) for the PHV version are reasonable estimates of mpg for each.

Does anybody have any credible info/insight as to whether the cost for the PHV will be significantly less than what I've been reading? The added cost for the Li batteries and beefed up electric motor are a major cost driver..

competition has crept in, the latest whisper number is that the phv will be $4000-$5000 more than a regular prius. There is a $2,500 tax credit on top of that. Nothing is confirmed, not even the final pack size or warranty. Be assured that if toyota does charge a $10,000 premium there will be competition from focus, sonata, and volt plug ins plus after market kits.

And not everyone is looking for a payback on the extra cost, though obviously the lower the cost the better.

Toyota keeps pricing under tight wraps until a short time before the cars go on sale. At this point I think the only hint to pricing will be well under the GM Volt ... If -- and this is a *big* If, the Volt is not a dud.

As for money savings, I'll be impressed if the fuel savings match the incremental cost by the time the car's life is over. PHEV is still in its infancy, and people buying now are not primarily motivated by money savings.

Do you have link?

The net cost for the Volt (after $7,500 tax credit) is $33.5K for the BASE model....so even if Toyota does ask a $10K premium - $2.5K tax credit...the base PHV Prius would still be considerably less than the Volt.

As to what the market might do 2, 3 or 4 years from now, with the introduction of other plug-in brands is of little concern to me. That's all a crap shoot.

So, if i take your number as a low ball number, and say the premium for the PHV Prius is only $4K more, minus the $2.5K tax break...then the difference is only about $1.5K. To be honest, I would be EXTREMELY surprised if the difference turned out to be that small. For one thing, that would all but kill sales of the non-PHV Prius....and I don't believe that Toyota would be that stupid to put out a new product that would directly compete (on a price point), and possibly kill-off a known winner for the company - the existing Prius. That just wouldn't be a good marketing strategy...if you ask me.

I have to believe the difference will be closer to about $5k after the tax break. That way the PHV would not directly compete (price wise) against it's bread and butter. Those that want the PHV strongly enough, will not blink at the $5K premium (although it makes little economic sense, IMO)...and over time, gradually merge the two lines.

But MOST are.

Maybe you're not...but I know quite a few that are. Case in point - toyota only sells about 90K-100K Prii/year in the US. By most car sales figures, that's puny. Why so low? I think to most consumers in this country, the trade-off between gas savings, and the cost premium for the vehicle is a MAJOR factor in consumer spending.

I mean after all, unless you have the luxury of spending what you want, on whatever you want...your buying decision has to make sound economic sense. At least to me it does...and I think it does to most people in this country.

Don't get me wrong, I'm NOT anti-PHV Prius. But as someone who is considering one, or a 2010/2011 non-PHV Prius...I have to approach the decision based on what makes the best economic sense, and simply not get swept up in the PHV craze because it's something new. New is great...but at what price does it make sense? For me, if it comes in at a $5K (or more) premium from the non-PHV Prius, I simply can't justify that differential just so I can show my neighbors I have a plug-in...they'll quietly nod their heads in approval, and then think I'm nuts. Not that I really care what my neighbors think.

Yes but I wouldn't trust any numbers until toyota releases the specs which may change from the test cars to production. There have been multiple other whispers of this pricing around $27K.

2010 Toyota Prius PHV Prototype Full Test and Video

Sure, but you don't need to turn the engine on to go on the freeway. A 40 mile range is worth much more to the initial adopters, the gm brand is a likely draw back. The volt is priced to lease so I would not get so hung up on sticker price.

The focus plug in and sonata plug in are estimated to be shipping with in a year of the PHV Prius. The volt will be shipping considerably before. Toyota needs to make a decission on whether to give their customers the option, or send them to the competition.

Thanks for the link.

I think this said it best -

"It'd take a lot of tanks (and/or charges) to make up the price difference between a bare-bones, $23,550 2010 Toyota Prius II and the $27,550 (estimated) 2012 Toyota Prius PHV. Wondering how many 100-mile trips? Exactly 2,151 comparable 100-mile trips or 215,100 total miles."

Although you can now get a "bare-bones" Prius for $21K...not $23.5K as quoted from the Edmunds article. You know, a thousand dollars here, a thousand dollars there...and pretty soon, you have real money.

It was also interesting to see that the PHV Prius had a longer (by 10 feet) stopping distance. The degradations in other test/performance metrics of the PHV didn't bother me as much as the longer stopping didtance, which, IMO, is something that needs to be corrected.

Perhaps I remember wrong, I thought Prius sales are quite a bit higher than 100k/annum in NA. Regardless, "making sense*" economically is exactly the reason why Prius sales track fuel prices at the pump.

My only point is that I seriously doubt PHEV will "make sense" for years. Certainly not is 2011 or 2012.

* What you call "making sense financially" I call short-sided and inane, but this is your thread, and your definition.

Average annual sales of Prii in the US (over the past few years) are around 100K. I think (?) early in the sales year for the gen3 Prius were on track to reach around 120K in the US...but that was before all the bad PR Toyota took in January/Feb. Been to a Toyota dealership lately? i have. There are TONS of Prii ready to be sold. I doubt they will reach 120K.

Oh, I agree that sales figures track prices at the pump. But even if gas prices take a 50% jump over the next few years, that's still not going to offset the $5K-10K premium in the PHV...and that's my point. Maybe in 8-10 years, or if gas gets as expensive as it is in Europe, then it makes sense. Otherwise, why do i want the hassle of "plugging in" every night...just so I can say that i have a plug-in? If not based on sound economics, then what's the reason? Show and tell to your neighbors and co-workers?

If the PHV came in at close to what the Prius costs today, then it would make sense - economically. But I have to believe that it won't (which is why I started this thread to see if anyone had any scoop) for two reasons: (1) added battery, componets and manufacturing costs of the PHV w.r.t. the non-PHV and (2) marketing strategy - Even if Toyota could, it's my opinion they would not price it close to what the Prius costs today...because that would most assuredly kill-off a proven winner for the company. Again, i have to believe (but am looking for some proof) that the cost differential (after the tax break) will be between $5K-$8K.

So you think buying something based on sound economic reasons is silly ("inane")? Really? Some like being the pioneer at any price...and good for them. But most of us have to live within our means...after all, isn't that part of the reason why the economy is in such a mess...people, companies and states all living/spending beyond their means?

Most what? Most Prius owners? If you were after cost alone, you'd buy a cheap Prius sized car. Not sure what is on offer in the US for that size of car, but I'm sure Ford, Kia, Hyundai all offer something for a lot less money than the Prius at the moment, let alone the plug in.

Most American car buyers.

The Prius is a medium sized car...remarkable amount of room, for both forward and aft-cabin. Also, I wanted a hatch, for the flexibility.

I've worked the numbers, and for my case, with my comute, I can save - in gas savings - about $1500/year (at current gas prices, i might add) between a G3 and say, a Corolla (another car I looked at). The price premium of the G3, with respect to the Corolla, will be paid off in about 6 years in my case. I typically keep my cars (a minimum) of 10 years...so, 4yrs (min)X$1500/yr = $6,000 savings in a 10 year period, over the Corolla. If I actually saved that money, in 10 years my oldest son will be driving, and $6K would make for a nice down payment on a decent used car.

I didn't look at smaller cars because I do have such a long comute, that I want a certain level of comfort and roominess.

As Grumpy points out for most people a Prius doesn't make any economic sense. At average miles of 12k you're saving less than 200 galUS over an ICE compact. So really, you're comparing diamonds to emeralds when people living within their means shouldn't be buying either.

What I read Sage as saying is not that living within your means is wrong, but that overall value judgments are wrong when people spend their disposable income getting more TV inches but demand a positive ROI to buy a more efficient, less polluting, quieter vehicle or describe desire as need when they purchase an over-sized car.

At a $5k premium the PHEV would sell well, because many buyers, like me, could afford to pay the extra, know they are paying extra, but also know that they are reducing energy consumption and overall are going to get a significant amount of that premium back.

^^ Exactamundo. I'll also add ignoring hidden costs to the inane.

My case is way more miles and gallons saved than that.

If we're talking 21K for a car (ie 2010 Prius) versus, say, $29-$30K for a PHV prius, plus the financing difference $$...it adds up, and for some, paying an extra $7K-$8K (or whatever it turns out to be), given all of the other expenses in life...for many, that's a big difference.

If the price differential is under $5K, then it begins to make more sense - for my situation.

Gee, I'm happy to hear you say that, "living within your means isn't wrong". You had me worried there. LOL. But it's personal choice on what one spends one's money on, whether that be bigger TV's, or paying more for a car that is (essentially) the same car...but you get to plug it in each night. Whatever works for you.

Who's demanding a ROI on investment? All cars depreciate and cost more money to maintain. My question is, at the end of 5 years, or 10 years...which car costs me less (TOTAL expense)?? And that my friend, is a fair question to ask...unless money is of little concern to you?

And that's all fine. I'm NOT telling anyone what to do with their money. i'm simply saying that there are MANY, MANY more people like me, that it has to make good economic sense before plunking down 5k or maybe up to 10K more for (essentially) the same car - in and out.

...and exactly what are the hidden costs of the PHV?

- Getting 220V installed at your home?

- The added electrical consumption at home (energy ain't free)

- Possible (?) longevity/reliability issues with the Li battery?

Who knows?

For me, at least, I question the payoff. I think it's a fair question to ask...for many of us that don't have the luxury of ignoring the price tag.

As we all know - GM got the tax credit rules written to perfectly fit Volt. Anyway, I wonder isn't it better for Toyota to increase the battery pack to be 16 kwh so as to get $5K more tax credit ? I don't know what the incremental cost of a kwh is, even if it is $500, that is only $8K more, $5k of which the increased tax credit will cover.

No wonder, Toyota was unhappy when the tax credits were announced (IIRC).

OP,
What exactly are you trying to figure out, or argue ?
As I told you, a PHEV will not in the near future save more in fuel costs than the increased monthly payment. You were told this by me and others, and then you started arguing that one should "live within their means." The obvious answer to this is that some people do not, while others spend discretionary income on PHEV.

Is this unclear to you ? You obviously have no trouble understanding that some people spend more money for a "comfortable" ride. Or perish the thought, spend the "comfort" money on plug-in rather than padding.

Your "sound" economic policy ignores the costs of fossil fuel use that are not reflected at the pump. Do you have any idea how much of your taxes are spent in military and political support of the oil economy ? What the health costs are due to fossil fuel use ? The social and military costs of defraying the indirect terrorism support our oil use causes ? The economic cost of lopsided trade inbalance due to our purchase of foreign oil ? Can you tell me how much pollution cost clean-up we are dumping on future generations ?

I can go on, but perhaps this is enough to give you a clue ? A little one ? Coming here to pontificate about "living with one's means" while you dump on the Earth, our country, and future generations is enough to make me a bit snarky. Is living within one's "environmental means" really any less valuable to society ?

Care to learn ? [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality"]Start Here[/ame]

I think the title of the thread, and my first post pretty much said what I was looking for. What's hard for you to understand?

What's followed ever since has been my response to comments like this (made by you):

"PHEV is still in its infancy, and people buying now are not primarily motivated by money savings."

I happen to disagree with the premise that "people buying now are not primarily motivated by money savings". So you speak for the majority of Prius owners...do you? Or are you only speaking about you, and your small circle of friends? Ya know, people at work warned me that many Prius owners were arrogant, or smug in that they think they know what's best. I never quite appreciated that opinion...well, until now. LOL.

Despite your arrogant position that "price is not a major motivating factor", I think most buyers will care, and base their buying decision, in large measure, on the price differential. For me, a under $5K differential between PHV Prius and non-PHV Prius, becomes an interesting dilemma. However, if that differential begins to approach $10K, I think you will find most Americans won't be able to justify the purchase. Same reasoning applies to the volt, and why at $35K, probably won't sell particularly well. For most people in the market for a new car, features, looks, reliability and PRICE are the determinging factors. What's hard to comprehend?

Did you know that for 3-5 years, while Lexus was building up it's name recognition, that it's flagship car was actually sold at a loss in the US market. If Toyota wants to put a strangle-hold on this market, it may have to significantly reduce it's profit margin on the PHV...because coming it at around high $20's to low $30's, for a base PHV prius, isn't going to win over too many converts...and that's the point.

WTF?? Oh God, here we go. Get a grip, man.
:rockon:


Yikes, I'm sorry if I touched a raw nerve, and questioned your manhood.

Peace out, homes. LMAO.

We're done.