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Anticipated price for 2012 PHV prius?

Discussion in 'Gen 1 Prius Plug-in 2012-2015' started by Michaelvickdog123, Aug 3, 2010.

  1. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    if you read tony's plug in blog, you'll see exactly how it works. once the plug in battery is depleted, you have a regular prius plus the battery weight, until you plug it in again.;)
     
  2. Michaelvickdog123

    Michaelvickdog123 New Member

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    OK, but somebody said that the ICE would never be able to fully re-charge the new Li battery. Fine. My question then becomes, how much does it charge it? How is the ICE re-charging regualted on the PHV? Does the ICE stop trying to re-charge the battery affter reaching 50% of capacity? Just asking.
     
  3. macman408

    macman408 Electron Guidance Counselor

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    Once the EV distance is used up, it behaves like a regular Prius. It won't explicitly charge the battery unless the hybrid battery gets low, just like normal, which is a fairly rare occurrence for most people. The EV battery is separate (and much larger), but when it's empty, the Prius is still a hybrid, using the hybrid battery. And as for depleting the battery in stopped traffic, just sitting has fairly low power draw - I think about 40 minutes or so to use up 75% or so of the hybrid battery capacity, which is only about one mile of EV. The far greater effect will be driving style - how much you accelerate and brake hard, rather than anticipating traffic.
     
  4. Michaelvickdog123

    Michaelvickdog123 New Member

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    I'm sorry, and I don't wish to sound rude, but everybody seems to be ignoring, or dancing around my question, which is -

    When the PHV is run strictly in EV mode, and eventually depletes (to some pre-determined level) the battery charge...when the ICE comes on to re-charge...what level (of the total capacity of the battery) does the ICE re-charge to?? One person said the ICE was not capable of fully re-charging the much larger Li battery. Is that true? If it is capable of fully re-charging, then clearly the ICE has to run a lot longer to re-charge the larger battery.

    The reason why I'm asking this, and why it came up is...some of the energy savings calculations seem to assume re-charging a completely depleted battery at night, from the grid. My point was, shouldn't one normally assume when you pull into the garage at night, that the battery on the PHV will be partially, or even fully re-charged from the ICE while driving home from work? if that's the case, the the 10 or 13 mile driving range is NOT all derived from energy siphoned from the grid, but some fraction of that energy has some from gas, used to drive the ICE, that is used to partially, or fully re-charge the Li bbattery...much like all hybrids.

    As to your other comment about the energy draw just sitting in traffic.....I do know this...in the G3, it takes much, much less time than 40 minutes to deplete that battery down to 20% while sitting in traffic listening to the stereo and running the AC. I'd guess maybe 10 minutes, or so, to drop from 80% down to 20%, or when the ICE turns on. Exactly how long for the PHV, with larger battery, should be a simple relationship between the two capacities of the Ni and Li batteries....and assuming the Li battery re-charges within the same 20% to 80% ranges as with the Ni battery? I don't know that?
     
  5. bisco

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    i didn't see that, but i believe the ice does not charge the plug in battery at all.:)
     
  6. Michaelvickdog123

    Michaelvickdog123 New Member

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    I'm sensing some confusion amongst PHV afficianado's. One says the ICE won't fully re-charge the battery (implying that the ICE does function in that capacity), while you say the ICE does not re-charge the Li battery at all. So, are you saying there are three separate batteries on the PHV??

    - 12V battery used to start the ICE.
    - the standard HV battery used on the G3 (or some variation thereof) and re-charged by the ICE.
    - the new Li battery that's only used for EV plug-in mode, and is NOT re-charged by the ICE?

    If the ICE does not re-charge the plug-in battery, then in order for it to operate (also) as a hybrid, then it has to have another battery that's serviced by the ICE. Right?

    Are you sure the plug-in battery is NOT re-charged at all by the ICE?
     
  7. Michaelvickdog123

    Michaelvickdog123 New Member

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    By the way -

    The reason why I'm asking this, and why it came up is...some of the energy savings calculations seem to assume re-charging a completely depleted battery at night off the power grid (ie lower energy costs than gas). My point was - shouldn't one normally assume when you pull into the garage at night, that the battery on the PHV will be partially, or even fully re-charged from the ICE while driving home from work? If that's the case, then the assumed 13 mile driving range is NOT all derived from energy siphoned from the grid, but some fraction (maybe a sizeable fraction) of that energy has come from gas that's used to drive the ICE, that is used to partially, or fully re-charge the Li battery...much like all hybrids. If that's the case, then the energy savings calculations are not what they appear to be at first glance.

    I'm just trying to decipher out what the real energy savings might be (on average), and exactly where those energy savings are coming from , ie, the power grid, or gas?
     
  8. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    That is right.

    Why don't you just read a thread on the Prius PHEV ?
     
  9. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

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    Also, Michaelvickdog123 should read something about the HV Prius itself. ICE is used to motion the vehicle, period. Only if battery comes low it recharges, but rarely. Battery is recharged mainly from inefficient service, like braking, coasting and ICE working not-to-near to BSFC sweet spot.
    The same principle is used in the PHEV, but the larger battery is charged from plug, and never more from ICE, which has his "own" hybrid battery.
    Perhaps the best option was to save some room for extra energy, like a long montain descent, but has been kept out of the 500 test vehicles. At the end of this "2 years, many million miles" worldwide tests they come up with something more "evolved"?...
    And be sure there's nothing for free, whether coming from grid of from gas. If you stop a trip with a bit of energy stored, is that a drawback because it was a saving on the road?
     
  10. Michaelvickdog123

    Michaelvickdog123 New Member

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    I don't even know what this means? Are you saying the ICE is ONLY used to power the wheels? If so, baloney.



    The battery on the G3 "rarely" needs re-charging? Is that what you are saying? If so, baloney - again.



    Again, what?

    True, as I just found out. It has two separate Li batteries. Same weight and volume as the conventional Ni battery? I just read that you will NOT be able to get the solar package and sunroof with the PHV...as you currently can with the G3. That makes me think there is some additional weight they had to shave off?

    From test results, I do know this - the 0-60 mph times for the PVH are slower than the G3, and the 60-0 stopping distances are 10 feet longer than the G3. All this tells me there's more weight on the PVH, with respect to the G3.

    But performance data on a car like this are secondary to it's primary function. That said, and as we all know Li batteries are far more expensive than the Ni batteries...it begs the question (which started this thread)...what's the added cost for all this:

    Unlike the standard 2010 Toyota Prius, the PHV has lithium-ion battery packs instead of the usual nickel-metal hydride batteries. The three battery banks are under the rear seat, and a primary central pack is flanked by a sub-pack on either side. The main pack is reserved for normal hybrid operation; the two sub-packs power electric-only driving. Each of the three packs contains 96 battery cells, and the system is rated at 345 volts. (The configuration of this battery pack is still evolving, the Toyota engineers tell us, and this is unlikely to be the final form.)

    Lithium-ion batteries are even more susceptible to temperature swings than nickel-metal hydride batteries, so the PVH Prius has no fewer than 42 temperature sensors to monitor the batteries, not to mention a separate cooling system for the battery area. The only signs of these measures within the passenger cabin are small vents under the backseat, but hidden inside are three fans that circulate air around the batteries just like the fan in your personal computer."



    Yikes!





    Nothing for free? Maybe where you live, but here in the States it's all free. :rolleyes: LOL.

    Since you seem to be telling ME what to do, or to read...perhaps you want to re-read what I wrote. But my question is now moot, since learning there are two (essentially) Li batteries in the PHV - one for EV only, and one for hybrid mode, that functions (as best I can tell), exactly like the hybrid battery on the G3...but made of Li. Same capacity?
     
  11. bisco

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    3 batteries, one plug in, one 12v and one reg prius battery. plug in only recharges from the wall. 12v is the same as always and prius battery same as reg prius, stores energy and helps to propel the car and power accessories. questions?
     
  12. Michaelvickdog123

    Michaelvickdog123 New Member

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    Thanks. As per my previous post, I found this:

    Unlike the standard 2010 Toyota Prius, the PHV has lithium-ion battery packs instead of the usual nickel-metal hydride batteries. The three battery banks are under the rear seat, and a primary central pack is flanked by a sub-pack on either side. The main pack is reserved for normal hybrid operation; the two sub-packs power electric-only driving. Each of the three packs contains 96 battery cells, and the system is rated at 345 volts. (The configuration of this battery pack is still evolving, the Toyota engineers tell us, and this is unlikely to be the final form.)

    Lithium-ion batteries are even more susceptible to temperature swings than nickel-metal hydride batteries, so the PVH Prius has no fewer than 42 temperature sensors to monitor the batteries, not to mention a separate cooling system for the battery area. The only signs of these measures within the passenger cabin are small vents under the backseat, but hidden inside are three fans that circulate air around the batteries just like the fan in your personal computer."


    I guess my only question (and getting back to what started this thread), after reading the above, and knowing that Li batteries are much more expensive...how much for all the added batteries and gadgetry. I think until we get closer to release time, nobody really has a good estimate. Although i can't see Toyota pricing the base PVH anywhere close to the existing base G3...even if they could.

    I think after all the discussions and all (thanks), I'm going to buy a G3. I have enough issues/concerns about price, the effective MPGs of a PVH for my particular commute and lifestyle...to make me not want to wait another year just to find out it will be $6K-$8K more than what I can get a similar G3 for now. Besides, I read that the PVH Prius will NOT be available with solar and sunroof. The solar would be nice, but for me, having a sunroof is a must. I've never had a car that didn't have a sunroof, and I enjoy and use mine every day. And no, I'm not going to do an aftermarket and alter the structural integrity of the vehicle by cutting a hole in the roof. That's not an option.

    Like every new technology, if I wait long enough, there will be something better just around the corner. Who knows, maybe when I'm ready to get another car for the wife, Toyota (or Nissan, or Honda) will have PVH that has double or tripple the range of the 2012 PVH Prius? And plug-in stations will be sprinkled about...at that point, as far as I'm concerned, the economic advantages of being able to plug-in at work, and at shopping malls, etc, etc...begin to make the plug-in, or all electric vehicles far more attractive to me, than they are right now. But we're not there yet, and hard to predict when we will be?

    Cheers
     
  13. bisco

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    i feel the same way. i want to wait for the phev or volt or leaf or whatever else, but i've been salivating over the gen III for awhile now. all the best with your decision!:)
     
  14. Michaelvickdog123

    Michaelvickdog123 New Member

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    Ditto.

    The G3 will be a HUGE improvement from what I currently drive...so that's a win already...and if I can get ~ 66% (50mpg/75mpg) of the (effective) gas mileage of what I might get from a PVH, but for $5K-$8K cheaper, well, the decision to buy a G3 becomes more persuasive and I will wait out this next wave of new (PVH) technology. No doubt something much better/cheaper, as more and more car manufacturers jump into this market, will emerge in the next 3-5 years.

    G3 it is. I'm shopping for one this weekend.
     
  15. Erikon

    Erikon Active Member

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    I think you'll be happy with the G3, it's the best choice both economically and enviromentaly for the time being! You are quite correct that this decade will see significant improvements over the first generation of plug in's. There is also the interesting fact that the G3 is capable of the ev performance of the PHEV, so conversion kits will be available eventually that might surpass the first gen plug in!
     
  16. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

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    Well, about your next move to buy a Gen3, congratulations!
    Maybe we can make a deal regarding your post: I will read again your previous posts. I do feel inside HSD technology, and maybe I misundestood what you said.
     
  17. sub3marathonman

    sub3marathonman Active Member

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    I will try a follow-up to cit1991's excellent calculations, but with a couple differences. I figured only a 3% return, since that is what is possible now in a long-term CD. I figured gasoline going up at 8%/year, and electricity going up at 3%/year. I didn't calculate interest on the difference from savings or losses for each year. I figured gasoline at $2.70/gallon, and electricity at $0.11/kwh. I used the 10 year lifespan of the $2500 battery (5kw) too, but that was the only depreciation of the kit I calculated in for. I figured on purchasing a new $2500 battery in year 11 and 21. I figured 7300 EV miles/year (20 EV miles/day). Also note, the numbers might be skewed against the $10,000 kit because you should be able to drive twice as far in EV mode if you have a $10K kit with 10kw as opposed to a $10K kit with 5kw as I calculated with, so maybe you could get 40 or so miles/day with a 10kw system.

    Using these numbers, it roughly comes to:

    Kit Price --- 20 miles/day --- 25 miles/day --- 30 miles/day --- 40 miles/day
    $10,000 ---- 20 years ------- 17 years ------- 15 years ------- 9 years
    $05,000 ---- 17 years ------- 14 years ------- 10 years ------- 5 years

    What I am surprised about is that the initial price really doesn't affect the payback period as much as I thought it would. Of course, that is calculating on a 3% rate of return. A higher rate of return would skew the numbers.

    A surprise was that an 8% increase / year in gasoline prices would see gasoline at $21.57 in 27 years, when EVERYBODY would be screaming for one of the kits. Also, when gasoline hits around $4/gallon the numbers really start swinging in favor of the $5k kit, but gasoline has to be about $5.40/gallon for the $10K kit (20 miles/day).

    You can also see how driving just a bit more EV miles / day changes the payback period. And it had a large effect on what the price of gasoline would have to be to break even on a yearly basis.

    So my conclusion is that really the only factor is the price of gasoline. Even if the only price was the batteries ($2500), you would still have to drive over 12000 miles in EV mode with the current price of gasoline. If you think it will hit $4.50 or $6 within the next five years or so, it could be a good bet. At that high price for gasoline too, the resale value of a kit might be going up, not down.

    OK, here is another bit of information to bolster the price of gasoline as the only factor. IF gasoline rose 5% instead of 8% as I calculated, the payback period for the $5K kit (20 miles/day) would change to 26 years.
     
  18. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Reasonable assumptions.
    I'm surprised the 20mile/$5k or 40mile/$10k results are not closer.
    Or that 20miles/$5k is 3.5x the payback period of 40miles/$5k.

    Plugging in at work and doubling daily range will make these much more attractive.
     
  19. bisco

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    i kinda want a G3 now, but when the electrification is available, i definately want to move to that. not for payback, but to encourage new technologies, drive electric/silently which is excellent and because current electric rates are half the cost per mile vs gas. also, electricity can be produced in so many different ways down the road as opposed to fossil fuels.:rockon:
     
  20. sub3marathonman

    sub3marathonman Active Member

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    Yes, but you're also now running into the achilles' heel of these kits. No matter if it is 5kw or 25kw, you're only able to recharge at the rate of about 1kw/hr, which equates to at most 4 EV miles per hour of recharge. Now, if you've got a 30 mile commute and you're going to be there 8 to 10 hours, it works out great with an 8kw or 10kw battery.

    And once again, the key becomes the price of gasoline. Because even with 60 miles/day, the system that goes 30 miles on a charge would cost about $15K and the batteries would cost about $5K and unless gasoline rose at least 4% / year it would never break even.