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ATF fluid changes ARE Required.

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Care, Maintenance & Troubleshooting' started by Bill Norton, Dec 15, 2012.

  1. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

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    Hello, This is my first post and after lots of research on the forums about this subject, I think we need to start a new thread. There is too much diverse and hard to find information on this simple subject so let's review:
    The Prius transmission is not a typical 'automatic transmission' with torque converter,clutches, valves and a lot of gears.
    It is not a typical 'CVT' with a metal V-belt and varying pulleys.

    It is simply a Planetary Gearbox with two electric motors in it;
    one motor controlling the the planet gears for ratio changes
    and one motor connected only the the drive output for electric only moving and reversing.
    That's right, there is not even a reverse gear set. This is incredibly simple !

    Unfortunately there is no mention of changing the transmission fluid in the manual, only checking the level at 100k mi.

    I'm a Noob. I purchased my '10, IV, Solar Sun Roof, (over $30k on the window sticker!) in November with 108k mi from the dealer that sold it originally.
    At 112k mi I changed the ATF and sent in a sample for oil analysis.

    The ATF change is incredibly simple. If you can change your engine oil (buy the 64mm filter tool),
    you can change the ATF fluid. While you're under the car doing the engine oil, look to the left by the axle shaft. There are the drain and fill plugs. Buy one of those transmission fluid funnels with the 2' foot clear tubing, go to the hardware store and buy 3' of the clear tubing that fits tightly inside the funnel's tubing and you have the only tool needed, besides the 10mm allen socket, long extension and ratchet.

    Attached is a story of 5 oil analyses, two from my car and one from a buddy's GenII with 250k mi.
    The first analysis scared me so bad I did a second ATF change 420 mi later and I show that analysis, also. All of these are Toyota ATF-WS.

    I used Mobil 1 ATF this time.

    IT'S JUST GEARBOX. That's all it is and it needs routine oil changes because there in no oil filter in this gearbox and Toyota didn't even give it a magnetic drain plug. Gen 2's have a magnetic drain plug.
    That, and the lack of scheduled maintenance, IMO, Toyota dropped the ball on this.

    I also added a 'super' magnet to the drain plug.
    Attached is a picture of my improved drain plug.

    2-17-14_UPDATE: I added a marked up report with 4 different analyses and a current report from my buddy's new Gen 3 with the ATF changed at 104k miles.
    His results were similar to my first. The fluid was "too dark to do the particle count.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    Do you put some sort of glue, or just rely on the magnetism?
     
  3. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

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    I put a small smudge of sealant on the bolt before placing the magnet then wiped it smooth.
    This is mainly to assist in cleaning it next time; no chance of the ferrous fuzz getting between the two surfaces.
    These magnets are strong! There is no chance of it coming off accidentally.
    They can be found in "Science Supply" stores that cater to kids and their projects. Hobby shops may have them also.
     
  4. gliderman

    gliderman Active Member

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    Interesting report. So what does it say? I am used to Blackstone Labs reports and your reportdoesnt say anything about the universal averages or location averages to compare the numbers to. Yes, I agree they all look high, but what is the norm or average for those numbers?

    Thanks! Good info.
     
  5. Whirlwind

    Whirlwind Well, it's not REAL!!!

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    well if its easy why not do it every 50,000 miles? I was under the I guess mistaken impression the 12-13 prius had a belt type cvt
    Ww
     
  6. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

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    Well, it simulates a CVT, just as it uses regeneration to simulate brakes, or electric motors to simulate Reverse.
     
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  7. gliderman

    gliderman Active Member

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    What do you mean by simulate? How do you simulate reverse?
     
  8. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

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    The Prius transmission has no 'gears' that 'change', no 'shifting' of anything mechanical at all. it is one fixed ratio planetary gearset that is 'variable' in software.

    Toyota Prius - Power Split Device

    This is a model of the Gen 1 transmission, actual ratios have changed over the years, but the principals are the same.

    There is no reverse gear, you just spin Motor/Generator 2 backward to get R.
    There is no neutral gear, you just do not power M/G1 or M/G2 to get N
    P is just D with a pawl stuck in the M/G2 gears so they won't rotate.
    B adds engine braking software to D, no change in the transmission.

    As a greatly simplified concept, (reality is more complex) M/G2 powers the wheels directly. As you adjust M/G2 speed, the car speeds up linearly. M/G2 powers the outer Ring.

    The Internal Combustion Engine converts gas to rotational energy in the 'planets'. (four gears inside the ring) About 70% of this pushes mechanically against M/G2, pushing the car. The other 30% (it varies by generation and model) pushes M/G1 to make electricity. Software can store this in the battery and/or use it to power M/G2 to make the car go.

    M/G1 then is very much under computer control and spins in both directions as needed to make the power needed and to control the RPM of the ICE. As you play with the model, you will over rev M/G1 frequently learning the 'rules', in real life the computer try very hard never to over rev M/G1. (M/G1 is in the center, called the Sun Gear, when you over rev it the line turns red)
     
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  9. gliderman

    gliderman Active Member

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    I know all that. I like the video of the guy who has the transaxle apart and puts it together to actually shows how the MG1, MG2, and ICE work together with the planetary gear. Fascinating, sorry I dont have a link. But, when I put it in reverse, the car goes in reverse. So it doesnt simulate reverse. :p
     
  10. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

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    In any other car with a gas engine, when you put it in reverse, gears change. Not a Prius. (or a Leaf)
     
  11. gliderman

    gliderman Active Member

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    You are correct. Gears dont change in a Prius. The only change in direction is by which MG(s) is/are powered and which is/are not. But put it in reverse and the Prius goes in reverse(as in, backs up, for real, not simulated). :whistle:

    OK funs over, back on topic.

    Change your ATF as much as you feel is necessary. I believer it is far more necessary for preventative reasons than the Toyota recommended interval.
     
  12. The Critic

    The Critic Resident Critic

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    The OP should fill his transmission back up with WS and not M1 ATF, as the WS is the correct fluid for the transmission. Because there are two electric motors in the transmission, you need to be certain of the compatibility of the fluid with the electric windings. There is a reason why ExxonMobil does not recommend the use of their ATF in any CVT.


    iPhone ?
     
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  13. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

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    Other Toyota cars have ATF changes scheduled at 30k miles. They probably should have done the same with the Prius.
    I suspect when it came time to spec a fluid for the Prius they went with what they had.
    Other automatics have wires and valves and clutches and such. The Prius only has wires in its gearbox.
    Any light viscosity lubricant could probably be used. A light MTF would work fine.

    The deal with some lubricant manufacturers saying their ATF is not for a CVT is because "Real CVT" transmissions use that metal V-Belt and varying pulleys and those requires certain 'friction modifiers' in the recipe.
    The Prius is not that kind of gearbox.

    Let's not argue on the flavor of lubes.(y)

    Just change it. Immediately if it is a used >30k mileage car.

    This is SO important I think it should be near the top of FAQ's for buying a used and maintaining new Prius.

    And if you're a Nerd like me spend the extra $15 and send off a sample to get an idea of how the car was maintained.
    And stick a magnet on the drain plug for good luck!
     
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  14. gliderman

    gliderman Active Member

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    That CVT statement needs some clarification. Do they say not to use it in the Prius? Other synthetic ATF fluids are used with great success in the Prius. Have you heard of a Prius drivetrain malfunction because of the use of fluids other than WS ATF?

    There are all kinds of CVT. The Prius tran is not really a CVT. Mobile1 ATF should have no effect on the motor windings.

    Guess what AFT is? Oil! Surprise! OOPS! I guess I should say lubricant instead of oil to be more general.

    -------------
    Bill Norton is correct.

    Sorry written same time as Bill Norton, just posted after.
     
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  15. jdcollins5

    jdcollins5 Senior Member

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    I agree with The Critic on this one and will continue to use only the Toyota ATF-WS and let you other guys experiment with the other ATF lubricants :)
     
  16. Dark_matter_doesn't

    Dark_matter_doesn't Prius Tinkerer

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    The 2010 Prius "transmission" is about $6K to replace based on a conversation I had with some Toyota parts counter guys some months ago when I changed my fluid.

    Think about that when experimenting with other transmission fluids.
     
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  17. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

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    Is the ATF fluid Toyota puts in the highest-end Lexus and the lowest-end Echo distinctly unique and the only fluid that should be used in the simple Prius transmission?

    Let's not argue about the Flavor of Lubes. (n):whistle:

    Some people still argue that synthetic engine oil is an 'experiment'.

    I plan on being with this car for the long haul. That's why I only use what 'I' think are the finest available lubricants.
    Only time will tell, correct?
    Until then it's all just opinions.

    Side Note: Before my second drain and fill, after I knew what had been slouching around in there, I was tempted to do a top speed run to sling off any ferrous specs still hanging on to the MG's rotors/magnets. I wasn't feeling lucky that morning, so I didn't do that step. Is this a consideration? And, what is a typical GenIII top end on a straight and level road?
     
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  18. jdcollins5

    jdcollins5 Senior Member

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    The top speed of the Gen III is computer limited to about 112 mph which is the top speed of MG2.
     
  19. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

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    I do not care what 'flavor of lube' you choose to use, but advising anyone else not to use the only lubricant KNOWN to work is irresponsible. Please stop.

    Folks, use ATF WS from Toyota.
     
  20. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

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    Roger, and Wilco.

    This was not advice.

    Just an opinion.

    Just as you are giving.

    That is what Forums are mostly about, right?

    Sorry if I sounded like I was giving advice.