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Baffler

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by airportkid, Apr 2, 2012.

  1. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    I just can't help but think that having one engine running on a two-engine plane is better than having no engines running on a one-engine plane. OTOH, I'd rather have one turbo-prop engine than two reciprocating engines. And I don't fly for fun. I fly because I want to get somewhere, and statistically it's safer to take a commercial plane than to drive a car. And though I occasionally find myself on a one-engine plane, it does not happen often. The last time I was on a plane with a reciprocating engine, I was flying it. (Piper Tripacer, circa 1964.) (I think the commercial helicopters that take folks up to the wilderness lodges I visit are turbine powered. The way they start looks and sounds like turbine starting, not ICE starting.) (And I only take those helicopters because they are the only way to get where I want to go. Helicopter access to the lodge, but never "heli-hiking.")
     
  2. airportkid

    airportkid Will Fly For Food

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    I agree that's the naturally intuitive assumption, but actual crash data shows no clear and unmistakeable safety advantage overall.

    Realize first that ALL multi-engine aircraft are multi-engine NOT for redundancy but for POWER. Their airframes need the power of multiple engines to achieve their performance aims. Eliminate a significant producer of that power and the airframe's performance capability is seriously crippled. It is NOT simply a matter of continuing the journey a little slower, in some airplanes the original destination may suddenly be out of reach, beyond fuel range (now there's a counterintuitive notion, but it works like this: the dead engine reduces fuel consumption, certainly, but added power is needed on the surviving engine to stay aloft, so fuel consumption is not halved but perhaps reduced by a quarter or a third, but most important is the added drag of asymmetric trim (flying sideways to track straight) kills the MPG. You burn less per hour, but your airspeed is so decayed the number of hours it takes to reach the original destination is more than the remaining gas can provide. If over water, you might have to ditch. Here's an example of a 377 Stratocruiser that lost an engine (1 out of 4) and couldn't reach land as a result:)

    [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_6]Pan Am Flight 6 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]


    There's a flight regime that's virtually ALL single-engine, a flight regime of very high continuous hazard - heavy, slow, and close to the ground: crop-dusting. Lose an engine in a duster and you're on the ground in seconds, hopefully under control. Now, you'd think adding the power of multiple engines would improve the efficiencies of aerial application - mostly you could carry more and not have to reload as often. But for decades and decades right up to to today the only crop dusters are single engine. Most are turboprop - for obvious safety reasons, and turboprops are also substantially more powerful than recips, but no one has built a twin duster. I'm sure it was tried - but experience keeps that regime single-engine. I haven't studied it but I'd guess the reason is that the advantages of a twin in aerial application are too outweighed by the added risks and increased complexity. Duster pilots can't handle more than stick and throttle - their eyes are outside full time (a friend once asked a duster pilot how fast he crossed the threshhold before flaring & the duster pilot said "hell if I know!")


    There are of course many flight scenarios where loss of an engine only reduces the number of airports available for landing but you could still easily make it to an airport and land under control. There are no doubt many incidents where a twin landed safely with one engine caged that, had it been a single engine plane, would never have reached ANY airport. But it's like the endless argument over guns: yes, some gun incidents seem to prove the "safety" of keeping lots of loaded guns at hand. Actual data, on the other hand, suggests the added risks are probably greater than risks deflected.


    One last point: our little Cessna has a glide ratio of about 5 to 1. In rough numbers it'll glide a mile for every 1000 feet of altitude. A lot of our flying is flown at about 5000 feet, so if the engine quit, we'd have a circle of earth beneath us 10 miles in diameter to find a place to park. I think it's about 50 square miles. That's a LOT of territory to find something straight only about 500 feet long with perhaps half a mile of relatively unobstructed approach to, especially over the Central Valley. The loss of an engine in our Cessna would very likely be expensive and hugely inconvenient, but not likely to be fatal, or even injurious.
     
  3. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

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    OK, I'm convinced. Logic wins again. With two engines, there's more to go wrong. And when it does, you're really in trouble. One engine is simpler and safer. Does that sound about right?
     
  4. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    I briefly considered getting a pilot's license and working as a crop duster. (I soloed on a student certificate, but never got a private pilot's license in the end.) I gave up on that idea when I learned that every crop duster in the area had crashed at least once.
     
  5. airportkid

    airportkid Will Fly For Food

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    Perfectly - and with a lot fewer words I wish I'd said myself :)
     
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  6. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

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    Some of your words were quite memorable. I especially liked the part about the remaining engine flying the plane to the scene of the accident. :)
     
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  7. amm0bob

    amm0bob Permanently Junior...

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    Not to the US Navy Bra... just saying...
     
  8. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

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    ...like that F18 that took out an apartment building yesterday?

    It's amazing there wasn't more damage. And of course, we don't know the real cause yet.
     
  9. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    And a LOT of jet fuel dumped on houses, cars, lawns, maybe a few people, etc. OTOH, I'm surprised those things can fly at all. :eek:
     
  10. Maine Pilot

    Maine Pilot Senior Member

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    I cropsprayed for 4 seasons in the upper midwest. All the planes were equipped with reciprocating engines; (mostly Callair A-9's, Piper Pawnees, Braves, Supercubs and Air Tractors). Never heard of any engine failures in our company, nor any others in our area. Hitting powerlines, trees, or botching a landing accounted for all of accidents at the time. I suppose you could call an engine failure due to fuel exhaustion an accident, but that is considered pilot error since it was avoidable.
     
  11. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    A North Dakota neighbor of mine crashed into a fence while spraying. Another neighbor then put an ad in the Fargo Forum saying "Fences removed. Call <name and number of the guy who had crashed>." Poor guy started getting phone calls inquiring about his fence removal service. :(
     
  12. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

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    A small bit of gasket on the intake could cause a vacuum leak (no turbo engine) that could lean that cyl way out. It would have fine spark and good compression.

    Just a thought.

    Icarus
     
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  13. amm0bob

    amm0bob Permanently Junior...

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    I agree... could've been it, and the reassembly corrected it.
     
  14. dustoff003

    dustoff003 Blizzard Brigade #003

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    Have you flown it yet APK? If so how did it go?


    Posted from my iPhone via the Tapatalk app.
     
  15. airportkid

    airportkid Will Fly For Food

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    1st test flight was this afternoon: 1 hour orbiting the Coliseum at 2500 feet and about 80% power (2500 RPM). Head temps were higher than I expected but after landing I checked & found a small flap of baffle seal not seated right after putting the cowling on, which meant a little ram air leaked into the lower section in flight and reduced the strength of the cooling downdraft. I repositioned it with a pick hook.

    But no problems - engine smooth, head temps all within 50F of each other, oil pressure center green, oil temp center green, putting out rated max RPM, oil the right color after landing (still clean, basically, no darkening of blow by). We'll fly it longer tomorrow.

    No taxiing for the next 10 hours or so - we'll have to get fueled by truck at the hangar (at $7.50 a gallon!!) and use the closest runway to keep our ground operations to a minimum.

    Cylinders are Cermi-Nil by ECI. For those familiar with the O-200 I also put on Real Gasket's modified pushrod housings which make a better oil seal and, most important, can be removed without havng to pull the cylinder. They're a miniature version of the housings on the O-470 & larger Continentals. That mod JUST got FAA certified last week (after, I don't know, FIVE years of process) - which meant I had to pull them off & re-install them with the FAA approved springs they sent me, which is why there was a delay doing the test flight. But I have an STC to stick in the logbook for them, which makes the Form 337 a snap instead of a hassle. Our AI signed the logbooks just before flight today.

    We celebrated with french dip sandwichs and tea at Carrows afterward (saving money for fuel).
     
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  16. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    From someone who knows zero about such things, why no taxiing? Running the engine at LOW power & rpm is bad for it???
     
  17. airportkid

    airportkid Will Fly For Food

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    During break-in, yes. The new piston rings are worn into their final shape against the cylinder wall; the reciprocating action literally sands them down a few tens of thousandths of an inch. This occurs when the "sanding" action is rapid, e.g. high RPM. The process mates the rings and cylinder wall to perfectly matched surfaces, creating a seal that prevents oil from seeping past the rings into the combustion chamber (which inhibits combustion, dirties up/fouls valves and spark plugs, and makes the engine consume more oil than it needs to).

    If a new engine is run excessively at low RPM, it retards the rate of break-in, and the heat soon cooks a "glaze" of oil on the cylinder wall that no amount of further operation will ever "break". If a glaze forms, the rings are helpless to keep oil out of the combustion chamber.

    The cylinder-piston ring interface is a precise, paradoxical configuration. It has to do two things perfectly: stop oil from flowing at the same time that it allows oil to flow. It stops oil from getting into the combustion chamber, yet allows oil to coat the cylinder wall just enough to prevent further wear of the rings and wall after break-in is accomplished.

    To create a space for oil to coat the cylinder wall while at the same time leaving a surface that the rings can stop the oil from flowing too far, the cylinder walls are "honed" by abrasive stones with a diagonal cross-hatching of tens of thousands of tiny scratches. If the cylinder wall "glazes" with cooked oil, it covers the scratches, forcing oil onto the wall surface where it can seep past the rings.

    That's why no taxiing - every minute at low RPM is a minute that the rings are NOT wearing faster than the oil is "cooking" and too many of those will glaze the cylinder.
     
  18. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    Okay. I get it. It does seem like a poor design, though. All that business with the oil and the honing and then having to convert a reciprocating movement into a circular movement. Why not just wrap a coil of wire over a rotating armature, and another coil of wire over a stationary piece, and use electrical current to make magnetic fields to make the armature turn? You'd have fewer moving parts and no messy oil, and the circular motion is just what you want to turn the propeller. I'd think that would make more sense.
     
  19. Corwyn

    Corwyn Energy Curmudgeon

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    Energy Density?
     
  20. airportkid

    airportkid Will Fly For Food

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    It does make more sense - IF you have a sufficient reservoir of electrical energy to both drive the motor powerfully enough and long enough to be useful, yet is light enough to carry with you (the only hundred mile extension cord system that's practical is streetcars running a fixed, limited route). We're still not quite there technologically for it to work with airplanes, which have to be really lightweight. We're only just beginning to be there for it to be practical with cars - whose portable battery reservoirs even now still aren't as enduring as a portable 20 gallons of gasoline for a reciprocating engine.

    It's true a gasoline engine only turns about 10% of the energy in the gasoline into useful work, but it's been the ONLY way for many years to generate PORTABLE energy powerful enough for transport.

    The route to efficiency in light aircraft is the gas turbine, used either as a turbojet or as a turboprop - but has the problem of being absurdly expensive, out of reach of all but large or wealthy operators. It's another paradox - the gas turbine in principle is about as simple as an electric motor, both being shafts that spin with no reciprocating action, but in practice require exotic alloys to survive hot section temperatures and hundreds of high precision blades that drive their cost right into the stratosphere they operate best in. 15 years ago a SINGLE main fan blade on a GE or Rolls Royce or Pratt & Whitney turbofan engine on a Boeing 777 cost $60,000.