1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Blackbox standards: proposal coming soon

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by bwilson4web, Dec 7, 2012.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,065
    15,372
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Source: Black boxes in cars raise privacy concerns - SFGate

    These have been standard in many Toyota cars including the Prius and were critical to the 'runaway Prius' accident investigations. Of the crashes investigated, about a third had data and all of them showed the brake had not been applied. But these are not found in all makes and models.

    By coming up with standards including how to access the data, a lot of lawsuits will never see the inside of a court room. The more interesting aspect would be if the recorded data could be accessed by traffic enforcement.

    Bob Wilson
     
  2. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    12,470
    6,862
    2
    Location:
    Greenwood MS USA
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Three
  3. mrbigh

    mrbigh Prius Absolutum Dominium

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2005
    3,686
    699
    2
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Will it record the eventual farts too?
     
    dbcassidy likes this.
  4. acdii

    acdii Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    1,124
    131
    0
    Hello big brother. It has it's good, but also has very bad potentials too. The part about traffic enforcement is key.

    It stands about the same as micro chipping your children. While it has good potential written all over it, their are side effects that can encroach on your privacy and security.

    Then again, if you know you have a black box recording your every move, maybe you would be less likely to be stupid....then again, maybe not. Hmmm, gives pause for thought
     
  5. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2005
    19,600
    8,034
    54
    Location:
    Montana & Nashville, TN
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    Will the Lt Governer of Mass be fired for being a GD liar? Of course not. The concept of an Integrity & character compass with no pointer is the new norm ... pizazz & snappy talking points, and quick ability to blame our ills on 'the other party' - that's what really counts.
     
  6. spwolf

    spwolf Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2005
    3,156
    440
    0
    Location:
    Eastern Europe
    good luck getting insurance company to pay you out if you drove 1 mph over the limit.
     
    lensovet and acdii like this.
  7. Whirlwind

    Whirlwind Well, it's not REAL!!!

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2012
    34
    7
    0
    Location:
    South Florida
    Vehicle:
    2015 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    One insurance company I looked at offers a substantial discount for allowing Thier own black box thingy in your car. They base your rates from how you drive. One of the things they say it records is "hard braking".
     
  8. mrbigh

    mrbigh Prius Absolutum Dominium

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2005
    3,686
    699
    2
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Ins. Co name?????? I like the SUBSTANTIAL discount offer.
    Is the first time I heard something alike
     
  9. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    12,470
    6,862
    2
    Location:
    Greenwood MS USA
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Three
    bwilson4web likes this.
  10. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,065
    15,372
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    I had seen the ads but your link gave me more insights. I've long wanted a similar device to record Prius metrics. Right now I have two options: AutoEnginuity and Graham miniscanner but then my interest has always been in the engineering aspects. What would be interesting is to see the data from:
    • Consumer Reports (CR) testing - unlike the EPA protocols, they have yet to publish the details needed to replicate their results.
    Given the abysmal CR reported Prius mileage compared to the EPA and driver reports, it would be a sad day if the EPA used CR to trigger investigations.

    I have no problem if the EPA staff use owner reported mileage to find vehicles with a significant divergence from the EPA metrics. But CR, Motor Trend, and half a dozen other magazines represent the lead-footed, stomping brakes, and tire-skidding crowd . . . not a reliable source. Still, a similar, data recording system might make a 'training aid' for those who like Jeremy Clarkson believe 'it is how you drive that determines fuel efficiency.

    Bob Wilson
     
  11. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2005
    19,600
    8,034
    54
    Location:
    Montana & Nashville, TN
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    Progressive Ins ... at least that's one of the Co's Insurance commercials that I've seen :

    Progressive's Black Box: Is Big Brother Good for the Industry' From the date on that article it seems like some states have been considering black boxes for quite some time.

    SGH-I717R ? 2
     
  12. wick1ert

    wick1ert Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2009
    1,311
    183
    2
    Location:
    Delawhere
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    III
    I believe my mom's cavalier (2000ish model) had one in it. They were able to access some of the data from her fatal car accident, IIRC, and if memory serves (which, during that time a lot of things have been forgotten on my end), the vehicle was launched from 0 - 40 MPH from the impact. I may be mistaken, though. I have to agree with the earlier post that they do have a very large potential for good, but also very real concerns for being used inappropriately. I am all for using them, with specific guidelines and strict requirements, when investigating accidents. In this area, I think they are by far the best for providing data in the instances immediately prior and following an accident.

    I've seen those same Progressive ads on TV, but anytime I've comparison shopped them they were so insanely high to start with that I could only laugh. They are, however, very reasonable compared to other ins cos for motorcycle insurance for me.
     
  13. acdii

    acdii Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    1,124
    131
    0
    I do think they are a good idea, but not good that they are Mandated by the Feds.
     
  14. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    12,470
    6,862
    2
    Location:
    Greenwood MS USA
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Three
    Now I am curious, do you want different 'standards' in each state? Every vender have their own plug and measured data? Or, going the other way, were you hoping the UN made a worldwide standard?

    Or were you saying there should be a standard but poor people don't get safer cars only the rich, so they should be optional on top of the line models?

    Help me on this, as I am not finding a answer I like.
     
    lensovet likes this.
  15. acdii

    acdii Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    1,124
    131
    0
    Seat belts, airbags, Im ok with, but something that can be abused like this, not too keen on. Just like mandating back up cams, there are better forms of alerting to things behind a vehicle other than a backup cam. While they are nice to see right behind you, without the Cross Traffic Alert that is on my Fords, if you are looking at your dash, you wont see the people or cars coming from the side. If they mandated the CTA that Ford uses, then I could agree to that.

    Backup cams can only see what is directly behind you, but the rear sensors can pick out things you cant see and alert you. It would also be less costly to add rear sensors than a back up cam.

    BTW what does a black box have to do with rich or poor people anyway?
     
  16. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    12,470
    6,862
    2
    Location:
    Greenwood MS USA
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Three
    When those back up cameras came out what cars got them first? Hint: It was not the Chevy Cobalt and the Kia Rio, it was rich folks cars. Without a Federal Mandate, this armored USB drive will only be in rich folks cars.

    The real 'safety' aspect I see in a Black Box is helping prove a defect in manufacture, and those recalls need to effect all cars, not just the rich.

    Toyota used the Prius Black Box to prove the 'unintended' acceleration was always a driver issue, but if the data had indicated a vendor problem, you can bet a recall would have been prompt!
     
    ftl likes this.
  17. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2011
    6,972
    3,209
    1
    Location:
    NJ
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
    My '98 SLS had one. The SDM module would record something like 30 seconds before any impact.
     
  18. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    13,525
    4,057
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX, USA
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    +1
    That is one of the real aspects. The price for a black box is low, much lower than some other mandated items. Because bad cars can be dangerous, there should be monitoring available to the car owner - not the insurance company - to see if the car is defective. That mandated back up camera, to me that is big government, along with the hybrid beep. I think people should be able to choose to have that or not.

    True, but they had refused to read black boxes in many lawsuits in the past. This shamed them into actually reading them in a few driver error run away acceleration issues. If there was not a huge back lash against toyota refusing to read these things, then I don't think they would have. The germans after the audi fiasco have all had black boxes in their cars.
     
  19. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,065
    15,372
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Now if we just get:
    • true diagnostic display - the real codes and engineering data similar to a Techstream-lite
    • USB interface to read out the trip record and diagnostic data
    Suddenly everyone benefits.

    Bob Wilson
     
    ftl and austingreen like this.
  20. kenmce

    kenmce High Voltage Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2004
    1,507
    491
    0
    Location:
    NY
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    Limited
    You need one more bullet point here:
    • Owner of the vehicle is owner of the data - anyone else needs a warrant. Otherwise a whole host of pests will lay claim to it.