Brakes, Gas Pedals, Re-calls, Facts and Myth's

I don't get it! What type of job could got you driven all those mileges on your customer cars (40 miles per car). Are you second hand car sales? Are you a service technician/advisor/manager? Or your dealer got to replace the demo car every week? Or your dealer deliver new cars right to the customer door? Are you Toyota factory road test driver?

The OP makes several good points that are spot on. Of all these good points, the one I want to emphasize is customer perception. Let me state first that it is my personal experience and personal opinion that the braking issue is not a safety issue. I see it as an unpleasant sensation that scares new owners.

Getting back to my original point, a perceived problem becomes a real problem for a manufacturer when it is their customers that perceive the problem. If your customers think you have a problem, you have a problem. At that point you can either try to change your customers' perception, or fix the perceived problem.

At this point I think we are beyond changing customers' perceptions. That leaves this as a real problem for Toyota, which means they have to fix it whether it is a safety issue or not. Commercially, the brake issue is a problem. If for no other reason than this, Toyota has been forced to address the "floating brake" sensation.

I don't imagine that Toyota is wasting much time trying to decide if this is a real safety issue. At this point it doesn't really matter.

Tom

"Sources within Toyota said that, internally, managers are not convinced that a Prius recall is technically necessary, insisting on describing the problem that can cause the brakes to temporarily fail as a “phenomenon”." - Timesonline Feb 8, 2010.

But what is that fix that was implemented on the production line? If it ain't break, why fix it?

It's an improvement. For example, many of us found the Goodyear Integrity tires lacking. For the 2010 model, Toyota decided to no longer use Goodyear Integrity tires. This is an improvement, but there was no need to recall the old tires.

Likewise, changes to the braking system have improved the way it feels. Whether these changes are simple improvements or critical fixes remains a hotly debated topic.

Tom

I'm sorry but this is technically not correct.

Toyota said that they had a design defect. Toyota is also not doing the recall because of customer perception. They are doing it because of The Japanese safety associations reporting.

A percieved loss of braking can easily cause the driver to act differently. Check out bob wilsons accelerometer about a measured loss of braking.

I can only assume you stopped reading my post at the end of the first paragraph; otherwise your post makes no sense. Or perhaps you deny that this issue is being hotly debated?

Tom

Sorry, some I clipped the wrong quote. Your statement was correct. It is the toyota sources that I meant to comment on.

I appreciate your input, and thank you for allowing me to correct this.

why is it we seem to have to pander to all the frenzied crazies out there? Are they somehow louder or more important? How do we fix the sensationalism out there when the sane bunch are being ignored and the "perceived" issue is just that? Where's that "update"? Why is the minority running the show here? I do hope toyota can "fix" your "problems" when the majority are just experinencing a great leap forward in auto technology...fully knowing it is different. Make it better? I'm all for it! A "safety" issue? not even close.

I said at least 100 of these. It might be approaching 200 but 100 is safe. The vehicles belong to the owner before they are purchased. The way to learn about everything in them is to drive them. I teach everyone here about all the vehicles and the advanced technology vehicles especially the hybrids. Teaching requires seat-time. One reason for our huge growth here is that everyone in this region knows where the Prius' are and who has answers to questions about them. That would be US and ME respectively.

Teaching the buyers about the Prius and the other advanced technology vehicles requires seat-miles and seat-time. Lots of it, before and after the sale.

Testing out issues like this brake issue requires seat-time in a variety of vehicles in a variety of situations. I've been doing this and teaching this here since before the first Prius arrived in N America in 2000.

Again as I've said over and over. Customer satisfaction. They are smoothing out the 'bumps in the road' for new owners not used to the characteristics of the Prius.

It's just about making it more palatable for a wider driving audience.

Well, investigations will determine if it's a safety issue or not. I'm quite confident the data will see the light of day. And, given what Bob Wilson's finding out with his accelerometers, it sure seems like it COULD be labeled as a safety issue. Brakes should NEVER lose their braking power when a user presses on them, under ANY circumstances other than outright slipping on ice...which is NOT a problem caused by the car. When it does, I dont' care what camp you're in, the "improvement" or the "fix"...euphamisms being what they are and all...courts and settlements will likely decide it in the end. I just want it to go away.

So ice is the only road condition where ABS is appropriate? Odd.

Of course not. I'm not talking about ABS though. I'm talking about brake pressure failure. Bob Wilson's investigations here at PriusChat are showing some VERY interesting results. Go check them out if you're interested in data about the event.

Toyota take great care to their future customer. Who took care of us. Now everyone know that Prius manufacture after Jan 2010 don't have that scary brake characteristic. Who would buy our pre January Prius that have the potential to send you to the hospital?

What if there is another characteristic unfold 6 months later. Who is going to take of those new owner. After you made your sale, will you (the dealer) still take care of you customer if they complain about safety issue? What happen to that Taxes Family that lost their life by the sticky gas paddle. They bring their car to the Toyota dealer complain about it 3 times before the fatal accident. All that dealer said were "We cannot find anything wrong."

Or snow or loose sand or gravel or oily road surfaces or airborne over bumps or railroad tracks or metal plates or any other low friction or lumpy surface. Other than that brakes should always grip, assuming you have good tires.

Tom

I don't quite see why all of this bickering about symantics is happening. I don't have a problem telling others that my brakes fail momentarily for some reason in extremely rare instances under very particular driving circumstances due to a defect in the way the brakes are engineered or the software that controls them...and that Toyota has a fix underway.

It seems to me though, that a lot of people who may have a vested interest in the matter have gotten some kind of a "talking point" from Toyota that says "Call it a braking phenomena, and a 'new customer experience braking improvement'. Talk about "spin"...call it what it is...sounds foolish to me to call it something other than what it is. Makes me wonder if the reason Toyota said an announcment would come later this week is they had to send out the memos to all the dealrships and interest groups on how to spin it. Toyota's apology will be empty if they spin it as a "customer improvement" implementation. It wreaks of cover-up and spinning.

I have an 09 Prius. My brakes feel just like the reports I am reading about the 2010 brakes. It feels as though my Prius almost accelerates slightly if I hit a rough area on the road while I am braking.

Is it possible that the exact same issue is present on the earlier models as well as the 2010?

I have no position on the safety question. It is disconcerting to me. But I don't know if it is a safety hazard or not. I just wonder why we are talking only about 2010 when my 2009 seems to exhibit the same behavior.

The reason the semantics matter is because it is poor road conditions that bring about the phenomenon.

I haven't seen any data that indicates a loss of hydraulic brake pressure.

Speaking of semantics, "fail" is the wrong word to use. Just because there's a transition perceivable to the driver (and not perceivable to the passengers) doesn't mean the brakes "fail."

It *is* the exact same issue on the Gen II and Gen III. Where it differs is that it appears to be more pronounced on the Gen III.

Tom