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California Bills vs Hybrids

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by bwilson4web, Aug 30, 2014.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Mixed feelings
    • Eliminate rebates for "rich"?
    • More HOV passes for plug-in
    • Renters right to add plug-in point
    Clean autos get boost in 3 bills - LA Times

    We saw with the Federal tax credit that dealers marked up the price by the amount of the credit. If elimination or reduction of the state rebate reduces Prius cost, good. But it isn't clear the "rich" qualifier really ends it.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #1 bwilson4web, Aug 30, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2014
  2. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    Interesting to see where this all goes...

    California is almost single-handedly keeping the Plug-In market successful by stimulating sales with free HOV access and tax credits. One wonders how overall U.S. PEV sales would keep going without these two Ca. incentives? Plug-In America is obvioulsy worried about that.

    One answer may be another bill under discussion here, as of Jan-2015 CA is going to unilaterally start ramping up carbon taxes on conventional gasoline. Presumably mildly at first, but with potential to grow into a major tax.

    OK just trying to weave a common "thread" thru some other threads here.
     
  3. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Will the elimination of rebates for the 'rich' be extended to FCEVs, or should I keep breathing?

    I was thinking that limiting rebates or credits by the MSRP of the vehicle wouldn't be uncalled for. If you could afford a Tesla, you could afford it without the incentives, right? But these incentives are being funded by taxes, and the wealthy likely paid more of them in total. The tax credit does max out on models affordable to most. So it is a lower value on the more expensive models percentage wise already.
     
  4. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Let's talk about the first one first. Rebates of $5000 for fuel cells, $2500 for bevs, and $1500 for phevs. It looks like this means testing won't have anything to do with Fuel cells, so the biggest dollars will still go out whether you are rich or not. The bill leaves it up to carb to determine who is rich. Median household income in California was $61,000/yr in California. I doubt the board will look at wealth but income. If say 2x - $125,000 was the barrier it probably would work. Pick $100,000 and you eliminate most leaf buyers, and I don't get the point. I don't think the $2500 really will affect tesla sales. Getting rid of the $5000 on fuel cells would have major impact to have people choose a plug-in probably a phev if people were wealthy.

    On HOV stickers, I just don't get it. There was a cap at 40,000, why raise it to 70,000? Why not 100,000 or have requirements on electric range etc. It seems arbitrary. They should figure out how many they want on the street. IMHO since a volt in california likely has more electric miles than a leaf (from surveys of owners) having a minimum aer for sticker makes more sense than a cap. People are already getting mad at some short range plug-ins, and the dealers are hording stickers.

    The last bill is all sweetness and light. I think there is no down side to the bills saying appartment dwellers have the right to plug-in as long as they pay for it.
     
  5. PriusC_Commuter

    PriusC_Commuter Active Member

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    At first I thought the wealthy being cut from the CARB rebates was unfair. But then I remembered that those with lower incomes can't claim the full federal tax credit unless they have a certain tax liability at the end of the year, which assumes they make a certain income as well. So it would make sense to have a California tax rebate to offset the federal tax credit. However, neither of these are the most effective. The best case would be simply for the dealership to claim the tax rebate at the point of sale to offer the consumer the lowest price possible. This would sell cars the best. Also, if someone doesn't make enough to claim the full federal tax credity, they are unlikely to be shopping for a new EV anyways.

    I am amazed they are handing out HOV stickers like crazy. I still have high concerns we will be kicked out long before 2019. That being said, I do still notice more violating single riders in HOV lanes than HOV sticker users, which surprises me as it seems it would be an easy revenue stream to ticket them.

    If renters are willing to pay for it, then what's the problem?
     
  6. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I am not sure how you are going to get to be fair, and at the same time put these big state incentives out for plug-ins and fuel cell vehicles. From a survey of prius phv, volt, and leaf owners in california
    February 2014 Survey Report | CSE (CCSE)

    Only 12% said they earned less than $100,000 (20% didn't respond, but 50% said they earned more than $150,000). Even those 12% may simply be rich but of normal incomes as 93% said they owned their homes. Median family income in California is $61,000. What this means testing is likely to do is expand the state bureaucracy.

    Hey rich can buy their way into the hov lanes ;-) Middle income folks need to sit in traffic. Its good for the environment according to carb.;)
     
    #6 austingreen, Sep 3, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2014
  7. dipper

    dipper Senior Member

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    Unfortunately, you have to make money to spend any money.

    Have you seen people without money buy new EV?

    And don't call me rich, I am still recoverying from the last recession. My job was lost to H1b Visa holder. Thank you Mr. President for creating new jobs (for foreign workers).
     
    Ashlem and PriusC_Commuter like this.
  8. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    Trickle-down technology?

    My 'droid tablet was (is) less than $200.
    Were I a richer 'early adopter' I would have probably opted for a $500 i-thingy a year or earlier.....but that's not how it works.
     
    #8 ETC(SS), Sep 4, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2014
  9. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Then we have the realization I was trying to get the group to understand.

    DOE policy that is working is to simply sell the cars, knowing the majority will be rich, but hoping this drives down costs to have a bigger market in the future. Here there is a rejection of means testing as being counter productive. The price of batteries will get driven down faster if you give $7500 to the rich guy buying a longer range vehicle with bigger batteries.

    California, well, we have data saying those middle income folks don't buy plug-ins. I doubt they need to subsidize the tesla, but if they are subsidizing cars, it makes little sense to cut it off at the median income. Median income early adopters likely already own a home in california, which means they likely have more net worth than median.

    Ofcourse not all the buyers in california are rich ;-) only about 90% of them from those polls (either make over $100,000 and/or own a expensive single family home). But no dipper, I wasn't making any judgement of you, either way.

    On HOV the strategy of an artificial cap of 40,000 then raises of 15,000 twice doesn't make much sense, they need to make up there minds and set a cap for bev and phev and fcv. This really is selling our roads cheaply to the more wealthy.
     
  10. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Class warfare nonsense.
    It is good to get clean cars on the road. It does not matter who buys them. For now it is clear that absent incentives, few people will opt to buy them.
     
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  11. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000, Tesla M3 2018

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    The idea of the cap was to fix the number and access the results. A lot of people with PHEVs may not be traveling far in a HOV lane. Me, for example. I have the sticker and use it for just a few miles per week. If the HOV lanes got clogged from the first 40,000 they wouldn't have suggested more.

    Keep in mind the primary goal: improve air quality. This is done by getting more and more EV miles. Getting more people buying the cars brings down the price penalty and leads to more EV miles in the future.

    Mike
     
  12. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    I agree the purpose of the incentives is to promote the technology and sales and not to give the masses EV. Now if the big thinkers (Musk Steyer etc) could figure a way to get old Leafs and Teslas to the inner city working class, that would be god I mean good.
     
  13. dipper

    dipper Senior Member

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    I don't know. Do we really want a SECOND incentive program (after giving used EV to the poor) to have to fix any EV problems (like replacing battery)?

    One reason we early adopters, willing to use our own money to gamble on the future. For all we know, we might have to throw away the car at the end of the warranty period because maintenance might be too expensive.

    But putting that on people that cannot fix it might have more politicians giving away even more free money again. Almost like Home Affordability Act so that the poor can buy a home without prove of income. And have to rescue them (again) because they can't afford to pay for their home from foreclosure.
     
  14. dipper

    dipper Senior Member

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    Knowing you for awhile on this forum, I know you are not picking on me.

    In CA, $100k is like being a middle class minimum wage in the metro areas. Schools suck for our children unless buying into $1Mil+ homes. Most of us live in working class neighborhood (just better than the ghetto), and our starter homes (less than 1500 sq ft) cost way above $500k. Most $100k income family are really living paycheck to paycheck. Makes your Texas starter homes look like our mansions... ;)
     
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